Can someone please explain... (trans)

[WednesdayAllTheWay]

So I've been trying to follow this trans situation for a while but now having skin in the game in the form of a child (and also noting through work how more and more people are identifying as the opposite gender) I need to understand it better.
Feel slightly embarrassed asking but:

1. How exactly do the words sex and gender differ in this area?
2. What reasons do trans people give for wanting to change their physical bodies? As in what do people believe they will get from this that they couldn't get in the body they were born with?
3. What are children being taught at school about this?

Thanks!

Ereshkigalangcleg There are a lot of people born in what they see as the wrong body. That’s the evidence. As you can’t test for thoughts yet

I am amazed by some of the views here the UK is not Utah and this is not the 1650.

I am amazed my some of the views and hugely disappointed.

There are a lot of people born in what they see as the wrong body.

That one "sees" their physical body as "the wrong body" is a software issue rather than a hardware problem. Our bodies - the only ones we will ever have (organ transplantation excepted) - are neither right nor wrong, they are what was set at conception.

That's the evidence What specifically is the fact-based evidence for someone's body being "wrong"? Feeling uncomfortable in one's own skin doesn't make a body "wrong", and although at times I wish I were taller and stronger, that I'm not doesn't make me disparage my body.

You can't test for thoughts yet If the thoughts are "I dislike my body" that doesn't mean changing the clothes on that body or adopting new mannerisms will make much difference as those are merely cosmetic adjustments - the physical self remains and the thoughts may persist.

Again the very basic fact remains that humans cannot and do not change sex - ever.

To me, a trans woman would be a woman who is trans. I fit into that category, but I'm not allowed to call myself a trans woman. Why is that? I thought I was allowed to identify however I want.

Nobody here denies that people feel that, justa47 , although there has recently been a shift away from trans people describing themselves as being “born in the wrong body” (and indeed a denial from many that they ever said such a thing at all). It’s been used as a metaphor for some trans people to describe their dysphoria. This issue is that we’re treating someone’s internal, subjective view of themselves as if it were literally true.

Why would someone’s internal belief about themself make it any better for a teenage girl in a changing room suddenly finding herself naked next to someone with a penis? How is she supposed to know that this person believes that they’re a woman, and why don’t her feeling on penis free changing rooms matter?

And yes, all the changing rooms of the gyms I go to have communal changing rooms. It’s very common.

Urgh mangled the last sentence there, but the gist is clear I hope.

Well they can’t have it. Individual cases can be challenged if it’s a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. Yes the bar is set fairly high, the example in the legislation being about a sexual assault counselling group rather than ‘toilets’

Oh so you do realise that males haven't actually changed sex with a GRC? And toilets are also a women's space, and in the workplace and schools are required to be single sex unless single unisex units, so the principle of single sex spaces which the exemptions cover already exists within law. There is nothing in the Equality Act specifically allowing males of any gender identity to use female toilets and changing rooms.

And the case by case doesn't have to be individual cases only, it can be the facility or service. The EA refers to it possibly being a proportionate means to a legitimate aim to exclude all males from a recruitment process in the case of rape counsellor. That's a blanket requirement. It doesn't depend on how much the male in question really really tries hard to be a woman.

Ereshkigalangcleg There are a lot of people born in what they see as the wrong body. That’s the evidence. As you can’t test for thoughts yet

There are people who believe all kinds of things based merely on a personal feeling. Why should it be allowed to affect the lives of people who don't believe in their ideology?

am amazed by some of the views here the UK is not Utah and this is not the 1650.

I am amazed my some of the views and hugely disappointed.

That's too bad. I think the sexism underpinning transgender ideology is closer to 1650 than the idea of women having sex based rights and asserting them, personally.

I am amazed by some of the views here the UK is not Utah and this is not the 1650.

I am amazed my some of the views and hugely disappointed.

What are you amazed by?

That women know what a woman is?

That they know men who say they are women are men?

We understand some men are convinced that the way they feel means that they are really women, but that their conviction doesn't make it true.

We are compelled to use the word transwoman here, posi.

I don't ever use it. I have used "MTF trans person" since the rule came in. This is an acceptable formal term. Or you could use the EA's term "transsexual person". It's a faff but I think we can see the problems with using "woman" about male people on this thread and others. It makes us completely on the back foot. It suggests that women are a subset of our own sex. It's a form of self gaslighting.

It's obviously up to you, I just wanted people to know they don't have to use it.

What is driving the move away from describing being trans as 'being in the wrong body'? I have only seen this mentioned on here and hadn't realised people were trying to avoid using that description now.

To me, a trans woman would be a woman who is trans. I fit into that category, but I'm not allowed to call myself a trans woman. Why is that? I thought I was allowed to identify however I want.

Of course you are allowed! Acceptance without exception.

As for having a brain in the wrong body, I have always been intrigued by the case of Stefonknee Wolscht, who is not only transgender but transage.

Please could I just check whether people who believe transwomen are women (a) believe that Stefonknee should use female changing rooms, etc, and (b) whether Stefonknee should be treated as a six-year-old child and allowed into spaces (e. g. playgrounds) reserved for children, due to Stefonknee being transage.

Personally, I do not think Stefonknee should be allowed to use either the women's facilities or the children's facilities but I wonder if there are others who feel differently.

Please forgive the Daily Mail link - it was actually the most neutral article I could find on Stefonknee.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3356084/amp/I-ve-gone-child-Husband-father-seven-52-leaves-wife-kids-live-transgender-SIX-YEAR-OLD-girl-named-Stefonknee.html

I think typesofc that you are generalising negatively . I think there are many transpeople with whom people here are on the whole comfortable with, and a number with whom they feel decidedly uncomfortable

So transmen , and transwomen who are up front about being Male , and who understand why women might want sex separation sometimes and defer to the preference of the women when it comes to needs driven by sex, are generally considered differently from transwomen who want their desires and beliefs to be top to the detriment of women.

And isn't it rather insulting to disable people who have an objectively measurable problem to say you feel like you were born in the wrong body?

I also think based on the many things that have been said on this forum as a whole there are plenty of posters who wouldn’t want to be anywhere near a trans woman let alone employ one. Perhaps they are older comments I’ve been reading that are from women no longer current posters. Apologies for accusing anyone here of anything.

It doesn't surprise me, that having failed to make any kind of convincing argument for your position, both you and Positrans resort to making unfounded smears and projections against the women on this board. It's really quite predictable.

@midgebabe

I think typesofc that you are generalising negatively . I think there are many transpeople with whom people here are on the whole comfortable with, and a number with whom they feel decidedly uncomfortable

So transmen , and transwomen who are up front about being Male , and who understand why women might want sex separation sometimes and defer to the preference of the women when it comes to needs driven by sex, are generally considered differently from transwomen who want their desires and beliefs to be top to the detriment of women.

I agree, midgebabe

What is driving the move away from describing being trans as 'being in the wrong body'? I have only seen this mentioned on here and hadn't realised people were trying to avoid using that description now.

You might find this thread interesting.

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4032857-Mermaids-and-the-evolving-understanding-of-gender-identity

@Ereshkigalangcleg

We are compelled to use the word transwoman here, posi.

I don't ever use it. I have used "MTF trans person" since the rule came in. This is an acceptable formal term. Or you could use the EA's term "transsexual person". It's a faff but I think we can see the problems with using "woman" about male people on this thread and others. It makes us completely on the back foot. It suggests that women are a subset of our own sex. It's a form of self gaslighting.

It's obviously up to you, I just wanted people to know they don't have to use it.

Fair point, eresh.

The point might be made that a corporation, for instance, is considered, for legal purposes, a person. That is, there is a use of ‘person’ which applies to a corporation or company.

9Toenails I think this is a really good point. A legal person has standing to bring actions in a court of law and own assets etc. However, a legal person (i.e. a company, corporation or other organisation) is obviously not the same as a human being.

Yes, it's not the case when you throw a brick through the window of your local Tesco that you are prosecuted for assault. You are prosecuted for criminal damage to property, because a company is not actually a person.

[quote Ereshkigalangcleg]What is driving the move away from describing being trans as 'being in the wrong body'? I have only seen this mentioned on here and hadn't realised people were trying to avoid using that description now.

You might find this thread interesting.

[[https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4032857-Mermaids-and-the-evolving-understanding-of-gender-identity]][/quote]
Brilliant, thanks very much for that.

@guinnessguzzler

What is driving the move away from describing being trans as 'being in the wrong body'? I have only seen this mentioned on here and hadn't realised people were trying to avoid using that description now.

It is certainly a conundrum. It was used by Mermaids et al as part of explaining to parents that if their children liked playing with toys ‘usually preferred by the opposite sex’ or clothes or playmates etc, they may be trans. In fact it was the justification given by Mermaids ceo when explaining about taking her child for genital surgery aged 16.

The complete rejection of this formerly strongly held belief coincided with the government reviewing the educational materials being issued to promote the gender ideology. Now high profile activists like Munroe Bergdorf are also claiming that, while they might have said that many times in the past, they didn’t mean it in that way and we all misunderstood the message.

Unfortunately this leaves a gaping hole for the many families that seemed to use this concept as a basis to affirm the fact their their male child who displayed ‘feminine’ behaviours for eg wasn’t actually gay, but trans (in some cases with an amount of reported relief according to concerned GIDS clinicians) ie they would rather have a straight trans child than a gay one (Susie Greens has reported herself that her husband was very concerned that their son Jack might be gay).

Now we are left with a giant gap in what we understand as the concept of trans, hence threads like this - without the idea of blue brain, pink body, we have no workable concept of what it means.
I still favour the idea that it is a mental health condition where the brain experienced some extreme discomfort or dissociation with its body, be that a type of Body Dysmorphic disorder, Gender dysphoria or similar and a number of high profile transsexuals would seem to confirm that view.

Despite many conversations with trans people and lots of hard work from people like Posit I don’t feel that we’ve found any better explanation than that.

I'm just watching this video which starts by explaining some background to the recent expansion of the LGBTQI etc 'industry' which could go some way to answering some of our questions.

To summarise so far, when the AIDS epidemic hit in the 80's, once the government got on board with actually helping AIDS victims, an NGO industry grew up around it which gave birth to certain medical/social organisations including the Arcus foundation.

These organisations have formed a large scale network and as Stonewall has found, once the LGB experience improved greatly with proper recognition of rights and equality, the need for activism around that group dropped off. The NGOs had effectively worked themselves out of a job and they needed to find 'another market' with potential.

It was a revelation to me to see that there is such a thing as the 'Sex Reassignment Surgery Market' which is treated by investors and analysts in the same way as any other commodity/service market like Beauty for example. Viewing it in this way answers so many questions for me and raises so many concerns.

Mainly around the fact that the numbers of 'traditional transsexuals' for want of a better term has remained fairly stable and minimal for many many years so how is this global explosion in numbers being predicted (and I don't buy, 'better acceptance and understanding' because we are simultaneously told how terrible the trans experience is and how it is getting significantly worse)? So, how would you normally look to be expanding a market that you want to grow? Marketing.

Social networks seem to be particularly effective in promoting the ideology to young people and obviously if schools and other trusted adults can be coerced persuaded to back up the online marketing which uses the oldest marketing trick in the book, playing on people's insecurities - you have quite a powerful recruitment tool.

This market has exploded in the last 5 years with a sharp increase in overall value (the presenter quotes approx. value of $9.9 Billion in 2015 and now worth $3.6 Trillion - I'm not sure I agree with the overall totals but I have certainly found evidence of predictions for huge growth from proper financial sources www.gminsights.com/industry-analysis/sex-reassignment-surgery-market with growth rates of over 25% predicted).

There are also plenty of women and men in the world who don’t hire young women - as in women they think are more likely to become pregnant.

No kidding! Having experienced the brunt of this for over half of my life, like many others on here, do you not think we are a) well versed in employment law even if we are not in HR ourselves because of it, and b) we have a deep understanding of the reasons why it is important to have employees that are the best people for the job rather than hiring ‘just the people you like’.

And thanks also for pointing out exactly one reason why a male identifying as a woman (or as a female as one this thread) will never understand the actualities of being female.

They certainly have their own perspective with unique discrimination as part of that, but only a female (that includes a transman and non-binary females) has experienced this in the true sense. There is no opportunity to say, ‘well I actually will never need maternity leave ...’

And besides with current focus on ‘gender’ rather than sex, means that a transwoman can take the role set aside specifically for a female (or to level up the stats) because of this very issue. Taking advantage of protections put in place to assist in stopping the illegal discrimination of women based on the potential of getting pregnant or having to have flexible arrangements for families. Why do you think women talk about the conflict of rights?

Having a person tell us they have been always female and are ‘similar’ to an infertile female when I and so many others experienced exactly this experience and also losing our jobs while pregnant (also happened to me) shows a complete lack of empathy and any depth of understanding of what being female means.