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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can someone please explain... (trans)

999 replies

WednesdayAllTheWay · 12/12/2020 12:56

So I've been trying to follow this trans situation for a while but now having skin in the game in the form of a child (and also noting through work how more and more people are identifying as the opposite gender) I need to understand it better.
Feel slightly embarrassed asking but:

  1. How exactly do the words sex and gender differ in this area?
  2. What reasons do trans people give for wanting to change their physical bodies? As in what do people believe they will get from this that they couldn't get in the body they were born with?
  3. What are children being taught at school about this?
Thanks!
OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
midgebabe · 17/12/2020 15:12

In fact why not just say that people born with female biology are girls and then women depending on age ? Why not?

TyroTerf · 17/12/2020 15:22

In fact why not just say that people born with female biology are girls and then women depending on age ? Why not?

Because if we take that view then there won't be a constant stream of young females submitting to dysphoria and bolstering the narrative.

This idea that to be a "real" woman one has to act in a certain way has been around for a very long time; those who don't conform have always had to fight to be recognised as women on the grounds of biology. We must have made a lot of progress on that one, since it's flipped now: those who don't conform are desperate not to be recognised as women despite biology.

Just a heads-up though, as this is an interesting thread and useful to OP: our transman visitor is very young, and just had an AMA pulled, so it may be wise to be circumspect in our responses.

allmywhat · 17/12/2020 15:29

No I can’t find any the U.K. doesn’t seem to like collecting or reporting this sort of data.

It's out there and there were news stories, you can't have looked very hard. There aren't many prisoner on prisoner sexual assaults in women's prisons.

Transwomen prisoners in UK women's prisons are at least 5x more likely to sexually assault fellow prisoners than female prisoners are. (I say at least, because the MoJ, bizarrely, issued figures on all prisoner on prisoner sexual assaults in women's prisons from 2010-2018 but there were no transwomen in women's jails until around 2016, and it's been growing every year since then. HTH.

Winesalot · 17/12/2020 15:32

Just a heads-up though and on twitter.

Alethiometrical · 17/12/2020 15:39

See the only reason I think of myself as woman is because I have the female reproductive genes

And sometimes I do feel that internally I'm female, but then - I realise that this is my socialisation into femininity - it's not an innate pre-existing "feeling" of being female. It is socially constructed and has formed me since my birth (I was born before reliable sex testing was available). As Cordelia Fine, and expert specialist brain researchers such as Prof. Sophie Scott, argue, the brain is plastic - nature & nurture meet in our bodies (of which our brains are a part).

BreatheAndFocus · 17/12/2020 16:06

sex is basically the characteristics you were born with. i have female chromosomes because i was born with them, even though i'm not a woman and they don't make me a woman

But they do make you a woman biologically - that’s what it means. The fact you’ve chosen to identify as a trans man doesn’t make your sex disappear or change. The words woman/female describe sex. So what you wrote doesn’t make logical sense. It’s like saying “I hold an apple but that doesn’t make me an apple-holder”.

gender is more of a process of figuring stuff out, and it's in your brain. funny thing is, it's a social construct, which means it can be redefined all the time. that doesn't make it bad, just means we made it up. like cars, or computers

That sounds an unusual way of putting it but yes, I agree Gender is a social construct and made up. It’s also worryingly connected with stereotypes that adversely affect both women and men. We’d be a lot better off without gender at all. In a society where gender didn’t exist, nobody would ‘have gender’ and we could all be free to be Us without things/actions being labelled as ‘boyish’ or ‘a girl thing’.

FWRLurker · 17/12/2020 16:40

Rates of sexual violence between inmates is far higher in female prisons compared to male prisons btw
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2438589/

I read This article. It is interesting because their results are quite different than prior studies, however their methods seem better. A few points though.

They report an approx 20% rate of “abusive sexual contact” compared to 4.8% in men. This included things like unwanted butt slapping, breast touching, kissing, etc. meanwhile the rate for unwanted sex acts (sexual assault) was much lower and more similar between men and women (2-3%)

Obviously none of this stuff is good or should be happening (no one should be touching each other non consensually) but The context is I think important.

To me it makes sense that male prisoners would not (as often) be doing things like touching or groping other inmates. Women do that sort of thing more - women are “allowed” to be touchy freely without fear of getting beaten up or killed just for invading someone’s physical space. Women are just less likely to respond with violence in these scenarios.

In the context of people generally touching each other more it makes sense to me that female inmates would also be more likely to engage in unwanted touching (more opportunity, less fear of reprisal).

FWRLurker · 17/12/2020 16:53

gender is more of a process of figuring stuff out, and it's in your brain.

Huh?

i only started hearing about gay people when i started taking a-level sociology, and i've still not heard anything about trans people.

Ok hold on. You grew up (fairly recently it would seem) and did not know gay people existed until you were 17? I was born in the 80s and knew gay and lesbian people existed by the time I was 5!

imagine you're in a box, and you can't get out. someone pours cockroaches into the box, and you still can't get out, and you're stuck with the roaches

I’ve seen these sorts of wacky analogies on tumblr, and do not find them particularly enlightening. What specifically is it about feeling awful in a vague existential way that means you KNOW the only solution is for other people to refer to you as if you were the sex you are not?? Loads of people feel existential terror and hopelessness that could be described in this sort of way.

midgebabe · 17/12/2020 16:54

You break the box, you don't jump into a different box!

EdgeOfACoin · 17/12/2020 16:58

What is a 'woman' if it doesn't refer to biology?

What traits are shared by all women and transwomen that are not shared by any men or transmen?

I've asked this question many, many times on this forum. It usually gets ignored, but I'm sure someone on this thread can answer it.

(Btw, I'm not sure what a female gender identity is either, or whether I have a female or male gender identity, so if the answer is 'all women share a female gender identity', I'm going to need a quick breakdown of what constitutes a female gender identity. Thanks!)

testing987654321 · 17/12/2020 17:06

I was born in the 80s and knew gay and lesbian people existed by the time I was 5!

I was born in the late 60s and someone told me what a lesbian was when I was 10.

testing987654321 · 17/12/2020 17:08

imagine you're in a box, and you can't get out. someone pours cockroaches into the box, and you still can't get out, and you're stuck with the roaches

Can we stop talking in weird imaginings?

You are actually female. It sounds like you're very unhappy about this but it is a fact. A psychologist/therapist would be an appropriate way to deal with this unhappiness, not getting others to pretend they believe that you are a man.

BewaretheIckabog · 17/12/2020 17:19

I still have absolutely no idea what makes me a woman if it’s not my biology.

Datun · 17/12/2020 17:25

Another useful thread. All the questions that are being asked, and all the answers that are being avoided. Or statements made that are patently not true or based in any kind of reality.

It's rather disturbing to read, to be honest. Changing reality appears to be something certain people feel they can achieve just by saying words out loud.

We all know, that they don't really believe that. (Hopefully). But watching it unfold is still rather uncomfortable.

Can’t we just say there are women born with female biology and there’s some women born with male biology. Just as most men are born biologically male but there are some men born with female biology?

Wouldn’t that solve things?

Except that all the humans with male biology (whatever you call them), and all the females with female biology (what ever you called them), would still need to be segregated in all the ways that we segregate men and women now.

Solves nothing.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/12/2020 17:34

Can’t we just say there are women born with female biology and there’s some women born with male biology. Just as most men are born biologically male but there are some men born with female biology?

Wouldn’t that solve things?

No. It wouldn't. Women are not a subset of our sex.

Datun · 17/12/2020 18:08

No. It wouldn't. Women are not a subset of our sex.

It's almost as though our entire existence is a resource.

Positrans · 17/12/2020 18:34

Hi @Wiblr,

Just wanted you to encounter a friendly voice here :-)

Congratulations on your transition, and needless to say, I completely understand what you have been through, and am glad that you've made it through. Welcome home!

Feels great doesn't it, to finally live as yourself, and to have other people be able to see you for who you are.

Don't let the transphobia dampen your spirits. There's more support than hatred in the real world, and it's getting better all the time.

BewaretheIckabog · 17/12/2020 18:43

I’ve read lots of things about what a woman is not.

Apparently

  • it’s not biology or genitalia
  • it’s not conforming to gender stereotypes or liking feminine things
  • it’s not about physical appearance

I wish someone could just explain what a woman is with no reference to the above.

9toenails · 17/12/2020 18:43

[quote Positrans]@9toenails

I agree with all the main points, but I already said that - I'm a sceptic, and if I am open to the idea that I'm not even typing this, I must surely be open to the idea that I am mistaken about other things. But as I said I have no particular reason to believe I'm wrong at the moment.[/quote]
This thread has expanded since I last looked, possibly because of your engagement, I suspect, positrons. Can we keep this little discussion going a little further, I wonder?

I asked whether you could accept the possibility of you being mistaken ‘without descending into the realms of … hyperbolic scepticism’ (the reference is to Descartes, of course). You do not wish to answer that, but, well, let us go with what we have.

How might we disagree? It seems to you you are a woman. Could you be mistaken that it seems so to you? Without claiming we are brains-in-vats, or utilising any extreme Cartesian-style scepticism or anything like that, I suspect you are mistaken, as I will explain. Let us see.

I do not know you. You may be a woman for all I know. So let us depersonalise. How about this: some transwomen feel they are women. I think they are mistaken, for reasons I will explain.

I mentioned earlier that the issue is semantic: about meaning. (I do not intend any formal semantics here, model-theoretic or otherwise. Just run-of-the mill common sense stuff I hope.)

So. What does ‘woman’ mean? I use ‘woman’ of female adult humans. -- ‘Female’? As I said earlier, I take ‘female’ as one of a binary pair, the other being ‘male’. (You wish to deny this binary, I know. But please stick with me, pro tem as it were.)

‘Woman’, like all words, depends for its meaning on how it is used. And there is a use of ‘woman’ that has it as one of a binary pair, the other being ‘man’. The practice of using these words in this way has a history. This is a use my mother would have recognised … that I recognised as a child … that my grandmothers and grandfathers used … that many people still use ...

[A word about definition. It is something of a diversion to think of definitions of words in contexts like this. Take definitions as the OED explicitly does, not prescriptively, but roughly as snapshots of use, possibly changing with time etc. The use is primary (although of course definitions are useful in special cases; ‘A Noetherian ring is a ring that satisfies the ascending chain condition on ideals ’, for instance, is prescriptive).]

This use of ‘woman’, now – this meaning of the word – is one you will recognise, I am sure. And, I claim, using this meaning of ‘woman’, transwomen who claim to feel they are women make a mistake because this meaning of ‘women’ denies such a possibility.

That is, those born men (where ‘men’ is used the way I have indicated) who claim to feel they are women (where ‘women’ likewise is used in that old-fashioned way) make a mistake – a mistake, in the end, dependent on what ‘women’ and ‘men’ mean – on how these words are used in the practice I have outlined. Can you see how this plays out? I hope so.

OK, now, you say, perhaps, you want to use ‘woman’ etc. in a different way. Fine. Two things:
(1) How?
(2) Note that a change of meaning entails in many cases a change of topic. So in our case, if we agree to use ‘woman’ in a different way, this will not challenge the conclusion we came to above, that transwomen make a mistake in claiming to feel they are women, where ‘women’ is used there in that old-fashioned way.

Finally for now, what about the question, ‘what does ‘woman’ really mean?’ Or, equivalently, ‘what is a woman, really?’ These look like metaphysical questions (or perhaps scientific questions). Can we answer them with our examination of semantics? Maybe not. But once you get to grips with the semantics, it may be that such questions lose their force. We may, in the meantime, feel we understand each other, anyway.

The question left hanging at the end, now, is of course the ‘How?’ from above. How might we use ‘woman’ and correlative terms in such a way that the binary ‘woman’/‘man’ disappears? (Let me emphasise that this is a semantic question: it asks what new meaning of ‘woman’ is to be offered; it is not a question about real definitions, a metaphysical question or a scientific question about women.)

Any answer? I do hope you can give this a go, positrons.

JohnMcClane · 17/12/2020 19:05

@BewaretheIckabog

I’ve read lots of things about what a woman is not.

Apparently

  • it’s not biology or genitalia
  • it’s not conforming to gender stereotypes or liking feminine things
  • it’s not about physical appearance

I wish someone could just explain what a woman is with no reference to the above.

8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.
Datun · 17/12/2020 19:06

Fortunately the government has decided that the ideology that says one is born in the wrong body, can no longer be accepted, certainly in schools. Neither, they say, can an adherence to a stereotype indicate a 'gender identity'. And, of course, feminism says this is sexism.

There isn't any science that indicates one might be a sex, other than the sex one is.

No one disputes the mental disconnect that a person may feel when they do not adhere to society's stereotypes. Or that people around them indicate that not doing that makes them the opposite sex.

And, again in terms of feminism, those stereotypes are on a hierarchy that place women at the bottom. (My personal test of this, is to tell male born individuals that they are excluded from women's spaces. And watch what unfolds).

Nor does feminism dispute the fact that some men find refuge in autogynephilia. Which, obviously, relies on stereotypes, with a sexual element.

So, in terms of people saying well this is what it is, I'm afraid the government, women, and feminism disagree.

Typesofcatalogue · 17/12/2020 19:09

It just confuses things even more. Completely re-defines the fundamental meaning of "woman" and "man."

It doesn’t completely re-define them. They would still mostly be the same. But it takes account of .01% of the population.

In any case as you can change your legal sex we do have women that were born male and men that were born female. So in one sense we’re already at that point.

Passmeabottlemrjones · 17/12/2020 19:12

@BewaretheIckabog

I’ve read lots of things about what a woman is not.

Apparently

  • it’s not biology or genitalia
  • it’s not conforming to gender stereotypes or liking feminine things
  • it’s not about physical appearance

I wish someone could just explain what a woman is with no reference to the above.

In the same vein we are always told what being trans isn't (not a mental illness, not born in the wrong body, not to do with stereotypes etc) but never what it actually is.

Why don't we ever get any answers on what are really pretty simple questions?

What is a woman?
What is a transwoman?

midgebabe · 17/12/2020 19:14

No it doesn't include some people with no impact on the others

It excludes all women who can not accept any definition of woman that relies on a feeling or a brain image

Women who feel their identity isn't actually terribly female are suddenly no longer women

titchy · 17/12/2020 19:15

It doesn’t completely re-define them. They would still mostly be the same. But it takes account of .01% of the population.

That's quite funny. So an apple is an apple except when it's not. So if you ask me to buy you half a pound of apples I may or may not know what you mean.

I think you'll find words don't work like that - their meaning is fixed. Context dependent sometimes. But fixed.