Can someone please explain... (trans)

[WednesdayAllTheWay]

So I've been trying to follow this trans situation for a while but now having skin in the game in the form of a child (and also noting through work how more and more people are identifying as the opposite gender) I need to understand it better.
Feel slightly embarrassed asking but:

1. How exactly do the words sex and gender differ in this area?
2. What reasons do trans people give for wanting to change their physical bodies? As in what do people believe they will get from this that they couldn't get in the body they were born with?
3. What are children being taught at school about this?

Thanks!

Exactly.

There is no comparison between being locked in a prison with Rose West and a man, and it is deceptive for anyone to point to the presence of RW to justify sending any kind of male prisoner to the female estate.

It's really interesting how identifiable sex tends to be from language use.

Mm, but your man-detector systems can be mistaken on this one.

An example from my own life: men in their forties used to think I was one of them. I was fifteen and female at the time. They used to say "girls don't talk like that" and I would get quite offended, because girls are perfectly capable of rationalising, intellectualising, pontificating, and displaying a breadth of general knowledge, and all with 100% accurate spag and 0% emotional literacy.

Round these parts we have what I think of as linguistic dick-detectors. Most of us are aware that someone triggering a warning flag in the dick zone may be male, may be an mra or handmaiden, or may just be a dick.

Are we still bringing up Rose West, a rare example of a female serial killer (but who worked alongside a man), to say 'women are violent too'? And not only that, but to imply that the evil RW is as much as risk from women in prison as she would be from men?

Jog the heck on with that nonsense.

I refer the honourable poster to Karen White, former prisoner of this parish, who inflicted lifelong injuries on a woman in a secure ward, and went on to sexually assault women in prison.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-45825838

Women are at risk from Karen White and their ilk.

And not only that, but to imply that the evil RW is as much as risk from women in prison as she would be from men?

Definitely did not mean to imply that!

Interesting to see on the latest ‘You’re kiddie’, right?’ , that KD talks about just how offensive it is that transwomen use infertile women’s conditions to equate themselves as women.

As she points out, these males who are using women’s medical conditions to be able to say they are ‘just like infertile women’ like to forget that they most often ARE fertile, but are the impregnators, which doesn’t fit their narrative. They can ‘have’ children, just not bear them.

Rates of sexual violence between inmates is far higher in female prisons compared to male prisons btw
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2438589/

Can’t we just say there are women born with female biology and there’s some women born with male biology. Just as most men are born biologically male but there are some men born with female biology?

Wouldn’t that solve things?

Can’t we just say there are women born with female biology and there’s some women born with male biology. Just as most men are born biologically male but there are some men born with female biology?

Wouldn’t that solve things?

What sort of things are you trying to solve with a statement which is so obviously false?

Can’t we just say there are women born with female biology and there’s some women born with male biology. Just as most men are born biologically male but there are some men born with female biology?

Wouldn’t that solve things?

Ok... so let's say we say that: what is a woman? Or what is a man? What is the difference between the two?

Typesofcatalogue

1. how will adding men to women's prisons make them safer?

2. Tried that. I spent 2004-2017 following a party line just like that. I explained on MN that 'some women were male' and so on.

And then I realised that for the first time ever, there really had been a slippery slope. Transwomen were saying they were female, transmen were ticking male on blood donation forms (endangering recipients) and people were arguing that sex was a spectrum and natal males were replacing women in women's sport.

Rates of sexual violence between inmates is far higher in female prisons compared to male prisons btw

I'm not sure you can make this sort of generalisation about 'female prisons' from a single survey of a single prison in the US. Do you have some data relating to the UK?

Can’t we just say there are women born with female biology and there’s some women born with male biology. Just as most men are born biologically male but there are some men born with female biology?

You mean we explicitly acknowledge that people are either biologically male or female but that they are free to identify however they want.

Yes?

Can’t we just say there are women born with female biology and there’s some women born with male biology. Just as most men are born biologically male but there are some men born with female biology?

Wouldn’t that solve things?

I am very incredulous that anyone would think perpetuating false science like this would solve anything!!

What exactly is this ‘biological’ deviation? Are we back to misusing people’s rare medical conditions to explain something that seems to be ambiguous enough that diagnosis is caged in vagueness? And of course, the number of people who are trans with these rare medical conditions are minuscule.

Or are we talking about those who are now ‘medicalised’ so artificially have now attained some biological markers of the opposite sex?

Either way, what the fuck does this solve exactly?

Can’t we just say there are women born with female biology and there’s some women born with male biology. Just as most men are born biologically male but there are some men born with female biology?

No, because it's nonsense on stilts.

Has this been posted?

www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/resources/womens-prisons-should-be-single-sex

But the solution to meeting the needs of any vulnerable male prisoner must be grounded in law and in the evidence-based needs of female prisoners. Vulnerable males must be housed away from female prisoners. Meeting the needs of these prisoners is a challenge which men’s prisons must meet. The female estate is not a resource for the male estate to draw upon in order to ‘solve problems’.

Yes. This.

It's really interesting how identifiable sex tends to be from language use.

‘Mm, but your man-detector systems can be mistaken on this one.

An example from my own life: men in their forties used to think I was one of them. I was fifteen and female at the time. They used to say "girls don't talk like that" and I would get quite offended, because girls are perfectly capable of rationalising, intellectualising, pontificating, and displaying a breadth of general knowledge, and all with 100% accurate spag and 0% emotional literacy.‘

Are you autistic, by any chance? (I am, and I’ve had the same kind of comments- which again is interesting in itself - lack of automatic ‘feminine’ socialization perhaps defaults to the male or at least gets one mistaken for male by others.)

But I did say ‘tends to’.

I’ve gradually learned to pass as a more normal female. Still a work in progress.

I always get very interested in the threads where people try to teach us 'advanced biology'. It used to be especially interesting when bowl was here, as I had never seen someone debunk weird arguments so quickly and poitely before. I love how people (usually men) assume that MN is full of stay at home mothers wh have no education in anything also. I mean, even women who have no education at all, still know what a woman is. Hell, my child knew this from being very very young. That some adults pretend not to know, is quite sad really.

Funnily enough, I have never pushed any of my beliefs onto my kids. But, my 8 year old came back from school before the lockdowns and said one of the boys in her class was saying he is a girl because he likes dresses and dolls. She found the idea hilarious, and kept going on about 'a boy in a dress is just a boy in a dress'..I have not broached the topic with her yet as I think she is too young, but it seems she gets it naturally.. I of course warned her not to be mean to him for being 'different' (just incase, shes a quite quiet child usually so she doesn't get into arguments really) but told her that yes, a boy in a dress is a boy in a dress, but that it would no be very nice to keep saying this to him, but at the same time she does not have to accept hes actually a girl as that is false. I am awaiting my meeting with the head about my 8 year old daughter being a meanie terf. That will be an interesting conversation.

Only onto page 3, so I assume this gets better. The 'but you wont believe any science!!!' followed by posting a bunch of random links that do not say what the poster reckons they do, is always quite fun, and frustrating in equal measure to watch. A couple of articles using people with DSDs to try and prove that sex is 'assigned at birth' randomly and is some massive spectrum, V centuries of science that sex is indeed a real thing and only female/male human beings exist, no inbetween unicorns. As I am aware, there has never been a 'true hermaphoridite' human? If I am wrong there I would be willing to learn more. I know Yaniv claimed he had fully formed genitals of both male and female when trying to force immigrant women to wax his balls. I mean, proof beyong the ramblings of transactivists..

The idea that male women exist, is just nonsense. As woman means adult human female, so what you are saying really is a woman is a male adult human female One cancels out the other, so as usual, nonsense. Just like 'anyone who identifies as a quabryboop' is a useless definition when someone asks what a quabryboop is.

Yep, but I always put my communication style down to the childhood trauma coping mechanism - escaped into all of the books, fuelling intellectual overdevelopment to compensate for lack of emotional wossnames.

I note the 'tends to'; it's an interesting point because language parallels clothed bodies, in that it's a collection of observed traits that together signal high probability of this or that sex rather than a case of single concrete indicators.

Obvs in Posi's case the open declaration of being amab is all the clue you need, but there are other, more subtle cues. Buggered if I can put them into words though.

This is just a response to one thing a couple pages ago, but wow. I just have to say it is absolutely disgusting to think that people have no right to know the biological sex of the person they're about to have sex with.

Also yeah, this part is vile, and usually made out to be 'an outlier view, not mainstream'..similar to the cotton ceiling stuff. Though its obvious its NOT just a few random people who believe them. Seems to be a large chunk of the 'transgender community' from what I have seen. Though not usually transsexual people. The rest of those under the ever expanding umbrella.

One of my friends a few years back, when I was just coming to this topic took a transwoman home with her after a lot of drinks. I assume the transwoman passed very well, as she had no idea this person was male. Until they started to undress. She was shocked, and said basically 'no I am gay, sorry' and says she was guilt tripped for a while, then threatened, and eventually punched and the 'woman' left, possibly the worst part of hearing this tale for me wa show she said it was 'only' a punch, at least it was not rape. What a way to think, but sadly common with women. I know a few women who are grateful they were sexually assaulted and not raped. Really depressing.. Long story short on my lesbia friend and the transwoman, it soon got around that she was 'transphobic' due to this incident, and she lost a LOT of (woke) friends. As apparently putting sexuality aside should be done, as trans people are more vulnerable and oppressed than anyone else on the planet, and denying them sex (its only a penis, you can ignore the penis and do other things, a female penis is different anyway! Just try mine, honest. Its the same shit lesbians have been told for ever, but dressed up as progressive) is literal violence or some such nonsense

@OldCrone

Rates of sexual violence between inmates is far higher in female prisons compared to male prisons btw

I'm not sure you can make this sort of generalisation about 'female prisons' from a single survey of a single prison in the US. Do you have some data relating to the UK?

No I can’t find any the U.K. doesn’t seem to like collecting or reporting this sort of data.

How many times do women who have fertility issues have to point out how cruel it is to 'other' them in one transwoman's need to call themselves female using reproduction issues as a gotcha.

As many times as people with DSDs point out how cruel it is to 'other' them, in order to prop up the 'fact' that there are more than two sexes, I assume I hope to one day read an explanation of this that stands on its own merits, instead of dragging in various other groups of people. Though I suspect I will be waiting forever.

That said, I do thank positrans for sticking around and answering questions and such. Especially without devolving into a 'fuck you all bitches' when it becomes clear that oddly, lecturing women on what a woman is gets nowhere, like the usual posters who come to tell us all we are wrong and must change our views and that science is not on our side. Been interesting to read, at least.

i have female chromosomes because i was born with them, even though i'm not a woman and they don't make me a woman.

Why do you think you're not a woman? A woman is an adult female human. You've said you have female chromosomes, which makes you a woman if you're an adult and a girl if you're a child, since it's not possible for humans to change sex.

You are, of course, free to have any personality type, and if you're an adult, you're free to modify your own body in any way you wish, as long as you have money to pay for such surgical intervention. I understand that gender dysphoria isn't classed as a medical condition, so there's no reason why the already overstretched NHS should pay for such cosmetic surgery.

See the only reason I think of myself as woman is because I have the female reproductive genes

It is the only thing that i have in common with every other woman

Take that away and clearly I am not woman. Fine.

But I am still the class of person who gets discriminated against because of those genes. I am still the class of person who needs specific medication which suits that genetic make up.

Can’t we just say there are women born with female biology and there’s some women born with male biology. Just as most men are born biologically male but there are some men born with female biology Wouldn’t that solve things?

It just confuses things even more. Completely re-defines the fundamental meaning of "woman" and "man."

And it is not the science