Can someone please explain... (trans)

[WednesdayAllTheWay]

So I've been trying to follow this trans situation for a while but now having skin in the game in the form of a child (and also noting through work how more and more people are identifying as the opposite gender) I need to understand it better.
Feel slightly embarrassed asking but:

1. How exactly do the words sex and gender differ in this area?
2. What reasons do trans people give for wanting to change their physical bodies? As in what do people believe they will get from this that they couldn't get in the body they were born with?
3. What are children being taught at school about this?

Thanks!

Judge: Guilty or innocent?
Jury: Innocent your honour.

Judge: why are you letting him go free?
Police officer: Errr they said innocent.
Judge: No silly, today innocent means guilty as charged!

The ability to change legal sex was granted when people understood transgender to mean a mental problem that could not be overcome with time and mental health support. When it was pretty guaranteed that body dysmorphia existed and surgery would be the only option for the person.

So not children , not men keeping all their genitalia, and not people expecting different identities on a daily basis

No. It wouldn't. Women are not a subset of our sex.

That’s just a hyperbolic and unnecessary extrapolation.

Except that all the humans with male biology (whatever you call them), and all the females with female biology (what ever you called them), would still need to be segregated in all the ways that we segregate men and women now.

Not all the ways because trans women would use the female toilets particularly post operative ones. And changing rooms if they’ve changed their bodies. Same for trans men. Some trans people sufficiently resemble their acquired sex to the point they would stand out too much or make people uncomfortable to use the ‘wrong’ toilets.

Trans women with sufficient breast material to require screening mammograms would be in the same category as females and not men. Clearly.

We all know, that they don't really believe that. (Hopefully). But watching it unfold is still rather uncomfortable.

I can imagine you writing gothic horror. Or a psychological thriller.

Given that you are talking about a small fraction of the trans population, your points are pretty pointless

And medically, a transperson is better being listed as a transperson as the hormonal and biological mismatches will likely need specialist observation. A transman for example still needs female doses of many medications.

Feels great doesn't it, to finally live as yourself, and to have other people be able to see you for who you are.

I, too; think it’s great for trans people to live however they want (dress, refer to themselves however they want, have any job they qualify for, etc).

Unfortunately ones self worth relying on others perception of you is going to be a very shaky foundation because fundamentally it relies on passing. Trans and detrans people I know have talked often about the terror and anxiety of not passing. It’s real! And does not feel great. For those who cannot pass they are forever in this state and there is no solution other than self acceptance because you cannot reasonably demand that others change how they perceive reality (there are four lights/fingers).

Don't let the transphobia dampen your spirits. There's more support than hatred in the real world, and it's getting better all the time.

I find this persons post to be quite difficult to understand, and would like them to reflect on it and then try to answer questions I posed in response. Is this transphobia? I really do not feel hatred towards any trans people. I do feel some frustration from time to time, I don’t think that’s transphobic either.

"8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are."

8th rule of trans misogyny: trans women are whatever transphobes say they are.

Transwomen are transwomen

Is that transphobic?

8th rule of trans misogyny: trans women are whatever transphobes say they are.

Ummm. No. When males seek to describe themselves as women without having any concept of what being female entails, females, quite rightly, disagree. This is not trans misogyny (it is actually rather misogynistic to think you actually understand the life of females when you are not). It is setting boundaries for safeguarding and protection of our needs. It is not denying that transwomen have their own needs, but they are NOT the same as female’s needs.

But crack on with your misogyny!

Not all the ways because trans women would use the female toilets particularly post operative ones. And changing rooms if they’ve changed their bodies. Same for trans men. Some trans people sufficiently resemble their acquired sex to the point they would stand out too much or make people uncomfortable to use the ‘wrong’ toilets.

So, you’re arguing here that trans people should use opposite sex facilities but only if they pass.

One thing I agree with trans activists on is that it’s not fair to have any legal requirements that trans people should pass before accessing services. Where I differ is what should be done instead.

Trans activists want the decision about facility use to be given to the trans person solely, and for it to be actually illegal for either business or individuals to challenge any individual case.

I feel this is unreasonable because it will have a chilling effect on anyone challenging anyone for anything short of a literal crime. Eg a completely male looking person just sitting in women’s changing area staring can’t be challenged because if they are or claim to be trans then we have a lawsuit. So no one says anything to him.

In my view, No legislation is needed because if trans people really do pass, no one would be the wiser.

On the other hand steps can be taken to make spaces more welcoming to trans people of the same sex. Via education - don’t assume someone shouldn’t be in a space just because of what they are wearing, etc. And more availability of 3rd spaces for when safety might be a concern.

@9toenails

"‘Woman’, like all words, depends for its meaning on how it is used."

I am listed as female/a woman on all my legal documents. I am referred to as a woman by everyone who knows me, as well as everyone who doesn't (because I pass), and you yourself are referring to me as a trans woman.

So, based on usage, I am a woman.

As for what "woman" means, well, given that it is widely used for people like me, and words depend for their definitions on how they are used, then whatever definition you come up with needs to include trans women, or your definition will be incomplete.

@midgebabe

Transwomen are transwomen

Is that transphobic?

Yes it is - "trans women" is two words. Same reason you don't write "blackwomen" or "Norwegianwomen".

@midgebabe

The ability to change legal sex was granted when people understood transgender to mean a mental problem that could not be overcome with time and mental health support. When it was pretty guaranteed that body dysmorphia existed and surgery would be the only option for the person.

So not children , not men keeping all their genitalia, and not people expecting different identities on a daily basis

I thought it was so they could get married. Given that people of the same sex can now get married it's not really needed. Which presumably is why so few (less than 300 in the UK I believe) bother.

Yes it is - "trans women" is two words. Same reason you don't write "blackwomen" or "Norwegianwomen".

Please stop using racist trope. just like this thread has highlighted just how much you have relied on using women’s fertility medical conditions and those with DSDs to explain the false sex spectrum.

Yes it is - "trans women" is two words. Same reason you don't write "blackwomen" or "Norwegianwomen".

Black women are women.
Norwegian women are women.

That's the difference.

Why do you struggle to understand what a woman is?

Positrans- no one hates either of you.

Stop stirring.

But trans woman means an adjective trans being applied to the word woman

Which is very very offensive to women

And is not at all the same as black woman, disabled woman, short woman, ugly woman who all share the noun woman.

I’m curious, posi. Does it ever give you pause for thought, when women tell you that we feel that things that matter to us - identity, language, spaces, voices- are being taken away from us and subsumed, and we’re vilified for drawing attention to the things we’re losing because it’s not “kind”, and then you post something like this:

“8th rule of trans misogyny: trans women are whatever transphobes say they are”

It’s a throwaway, cheap line from you I think. But do you see what you did there? You took something that women use to describe our experiences, you took those words, and you made them into something else that now isn’t for the population for which it was devised. You appropriated them to score a point*

Are you aware you’ve done that? And do you think that’s the action of a good, thoughtful, kind person?

*though it’s kind of an own goal to be fair, because if transwomen are women, then why would you need separate rules of misogyny?

As for what "woman" means, well, given that it is widely used for people like me, and words depend for their definitions on how they are used, then whatever definition you come up with needs to include trans women, or your definition will be incomplete.

Unfortunately you’ve got a bit carried away with your words. Woman means adult human female. It is a defined and verifiable sex class and to include people of the (defined, verifiable) male sex class is incorrect.
This thread seems to have established that there are no meaningful life similarities between women and people not born female that outweighs reality, so anyone that isn’t biologically female cannot be included in that sex class.
The fact that activists with a particular agenda have managed to inveigle an unsuspecting government into creating a legal fiction that a male can be regarded as a female doesn’t change reality.

So, you’re arguing here that trans people should use opposite sex facilities but only if they pass.

Not necessarily it’s just one argument that applies to a subset. It’s not the only one.

Trans activists want the decision about facility use to be given to the trans person solely, and for it to be actually illegal for either business or individuals to challenge any individual case.

Well they can’t have it. Individual cases can be challenged if it’s a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. Yes the bar is set fairly high, the example in the legislation being about a sexual assault counselling group rather than ‘toilets’.

In my view, No legislation is needed because if trans people really do pass, no one would be the wiser.

They are the ones less likely to run into problems. But there are still situations where others can find out and then treat them differently. For example I bet 90% of the users of this board would not offer a (non sex specific) job to a passing trans woman if they found out about their past subsequent to a successful interview. Or not buy a book or art that they liked that they then found out was by a trans person.

On the other hand steps can be taken to make spaces more welcoming to trans people of the same sex. Via education - don’t assume someone shouldn’t be in a space just because of what they are wearing, etc. And more availability of 3rd spaces for when safety might be a concern.

Gender dysphoria can be extreme enough to cause someone to take cross sex hormones and invasive surgery for life. The likelihood that someone could just ‘deal with it’ enough to go into the toilets of what will feel like the wrong sex, is preposterous.

Yes it is - "trans women" is two words. Same reason you don't write "blackwomen" or "Norwegianwomen".

Not the same.

Black women are female.
Norwegian women are female.
Transwomen are male.

Seahorses aren't horses, either.

Gender dysphoria can be extreme enough to cause someone to take cross sex hormones and invasive surgery for life. The likelihood that someone could just ‘deal with it’ enough to go into the toilets of what will feel like the wrong sex, is preposterous.

Except of course the vast majority don't take cross sex hormones or have any sort of surgery, so, yeah, they do appear to just 'deal with it'. Except when they want access to females.

For example I bet 90% of the users of this board would not offer a (non sex specific) job to a passing trans woman if they found out about their past subsequent to a successful interview. Or not buy a book or art that they liked that they then found out was by a trans person.

What makes you think that? It would be illegal not to offer the job to the person just because they had the protected characteristic of gender reassignment (unless it was a job which was exempt because the single sex exemptions). And I don't know why you think anyone here would decide not to buy a book or art that they liked just because it was by a transgender person.

Not all trans people are offensive and bigoted TRAs.

For example I bet 90% of the users of this board would not offer a (non sex specific) job to a passing trans woman if they found out about their past subsequent to a successful interview. Or not buy a book or art that they liked that they then found out was by a trans person.

I take great exception to this slur. I do not believe it is possible to change sex, but the best person for a job should get the job, and what difference does it make to me if a person who is trans writes a book I like?

This is not at all about wanting to discriminate against people.

There are two issues:

1. Children should be protected from dangerous practices like binding or taking experimental drugs. Those should be reserved for adults and then only after significant psychological assessment/support.

1. Women's spaces are for women and these need protecting. Whether women's sports, changing rooms, prisons or news headlines. The word woman must mean adult human female.

I do not like being lied to and I will not lie. If a man feels better presenting as a woman that is fine, but that doesn't mean they are actually a woman. I would not treat them any differently based on this.

Yes it is - "trans women" is two words. Same reason you don't write "blackwomen" or "Norwegianwomen".

Oh god not this again.

Black women are not males. They are women. Transwomen are males.

Gender dysmorphia can be so bad that people take cross sex hormones for life

It can also be something that girls grow out of as they learn to separate the way they feel about their changing body, the way society mistreats them, and who they really are . When they learn to believe that there is nothing wrong with them, nothing that needs changing because they are perfect and if other people are so steeeped in gender sterotyping that they can't see it, that's their problem . That's why there are so few transmen over the age of about 30. We didn't really have the pressure to transition.