Can someone please explain... (trans)

[WednesdayAllTheWay]

So I've been trying to follow this trans situation for a while but now having skin in the game in the form of a child (and also noting through work how more and more people are identifying as the opposite gender) I need to understand it better.
Feel slightly embarrassed asking but:

1. How exactly do the words sex and gender differ in this area?
2. What reasons do trans people give for wanting to change their physical bodies? As in what do people believe they will get from this that they couldn't get in the body they were born with?
3. What are children being taught at school about this?

Thanks!

@titchy

Rape isn't about law. If it was then rape in marriage didn't exist until it became illegal.

Try telling the judge and jury when you're up for a rape trial that rape isn't about the law.

Can I state again, for the benefit of others, having sex with someone without disclosing trans status is illegal. It is rape.

The point being that rape is rape whether it is defined in law or not. I would also add that someone can be raped with an object other than a penis and the effect can be equally as traumatic.

" you are expecting me to take your word for it and I am afraid that I can't do that."

That's quite alright - my passability is not contingent on your believing it exists.

Your problem is that I simply don't believe I'm not female

The entitlement is laid bare here. Your mental health issue is not other women's problem: it is yours to deal with.

Most women are pretty compassionate towards those who experience the cognitive dissonance and the mind/body separation you experience. We try to be polite and accommodating, as we know that people like you are just trying to get along and live their lives with some sort of happiness and contentment. If surgically altering your male body, medicating it with artificial hormones, and dressing to try to look like a woman, help you live your life, and damp down the body dysphoria, then I wish you well.

But I will argue the point generally and in specific cases that men's fantasies about being female are not "my problem" and that no man or transwoman tells 50% of the population who and what we are. We've had enough of that from the Book of Genesis on. Women determine who women are.

Nothing about us without us, as Woman's Place UK says.

@Winesalot

if you have sex with someone without telling them you're trans,

If you have sex with someone without informing them of what type of sex you are going to have with them, that falls under coercion.

I cannot believe that anyone who had any respect for their sexual partners would not have this discussion prior to any sexual relations.

What if the trans woman in question genuinely, and without doubt believes she is a woman?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

When you think about it, the entire concept of "gender identity" is just one giant mansplain. It is a myth invented by males who were presuming that they understand what women experience.

I completely agree.

Trans men exist.

I would also add that someone can be raped with an object other than a penis and the effect can be equally as traumatic.

Are you in the UK? Under UK law, the crime of rape requires a penis. What you're describing is sexual assault under the UK legal system.

The point being that sex without fully informed consent is illegal and utterly vile.

The trans partner has the responsibility to be open about their trans status in order to obtain fully informed consent from the other. It is not the responsibility of the non-trans partner. Nice bit of victim blaming there.

We see you positrans.

Trans men exist.

They didn't invent "gender identity." Transwomen did.

@Winesalot

Biology is very complicated, but humans are either male or female. There are only two sexes. It's not possible to be born in the wrong body, we all get the body we are in, like it or not.

That some people have disorders of sexual development or gender dysphoria doesn't mean that there's anything other than two sexes.

There is absolutely no way, as we can see from the video posted, that sex can be described as a spectrum unless you use people with DSDs as your basis. People with these differences keep asking transpeople to stop using their bodies as explanations to fit the current narrative some activists are aggressively supporting - that sex is a spectrum.

They keep also bringing the phrase 'high school level biology' to shut down any disagreement.... ah. no.. I get my knowledge from published articles by Dr's of developmental and evolutionary biology who disagree that people with these rare differences explain a spectrum. They are male or female still. Each sex has its own spectrum of body differences, but sex is binary.

So, apart from this video link, is there any evidence to support what seems to be a pseudoscience theory that sex is on a spectrum? One that doesn't appropriate people with DSDs bodies? Or even hint at people with DSDs bodies?

I would love to add it to my reading list which is wide and varied.

But you see how this works - it doesn't matter what science is presented to you if your mind is not open to what the science is telling you, so I could post a thousand links, invite a professor human physiology to join in and explain all the complexities in detail, but it won't make any difference.

Trans men exist.

Never seen them talking over men about what manhood is about.

what the science is telling you, so I could post a thousand links,

You haven't posted anything remotely convincing, so that is moot. "The science" doesn't tell us that biological sex doesn't exist.

What if the trans woman in question genuinely, and without doubt believes she is a woman?

Then perhaps that person needs to understand why their potential sexual partner might say ‘no thanks, after all’. And if they have engaged in sex without disclosing this status, then the law would likely be on the side of the person who has had sex that they did NOT CONSENT to.

It is actually very straightforward. It comes down to consent. The secondary schools are very very good at educating teens what consent really means.

Just because one person believes their own version of reality, it is no protection from non consensual sex acts under the law. I cannot imagine the degree of the lack of respect that would take to think that this would be ok.

What if the trans woman in question genuinely, and without doubt believes she is a woman?

But they aren't female, whatever they may believe.

But you see how this works - it doesn't matter what science is presented to you if your mind is not open to what the science is telling you, so I could post a thousand links, invite a professor human physiology to join in and explain all the complexities in detail, but it won't make any difference.

Just one that made sense would suffice. With actual evidence. Have you got one you could share please?

And have you got a minute to answer mh questions please. I am interested in your position on the doctor/medication question and the how you determine your ‘femaleness’ please.

So Positrans if you are neither transman nor transwoman but you were born male does that make you a non binary person of the male sex or would you class yourself as a person with a male body who is gender fluid?

What if the trans woman in question genuinely, and without doubt believes she is a woman?

This is what happened when a transman decided to have sex with a woman whilst pretending to be a man. The defendent was convicted of assault by penetration.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-35105980

The judge in this case said: "I accept the whole motivation - however selfish and though it was dreadful and deceitful - was to have a relationship. Not a physical one, but a relationship with a woman as a man."

You seem to be saying that you don't think such crimes should be illegal.

amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/gayle-newland-jailed-for-tricking-female-friend-into-sex

You nail it . Your mind is closed,

you don't think like a woman when it comes to sex

X post of a different case

@Emeeno1

When an archaeologist digs up bones from 1000s of years ago osteologists can sex them according to differences between the male and female skeleton.

When there are no genitals, no hair, no muscle or tissue or external trappings, just our bones relay our sex.

No matter who you present as today your bones will tell the truth of your biological sex tomorrow.

Well, firstly, a lot of skeletons are indeterminate - ie, they either show ambiguous characteristics or the remains are not complete enough to sex the skeleton with confidence.

Also, if these future archaeologist dig up a trans woman who transitioned at puberty with estrogen, they will find a skeleton with a typically female structure (as much as any female has one).

Also, they might look at the genes of the skeleton if DNA can be extracted, and then they might find various genetic markers associated with being trans. These ones for example:

www.abstractsonline.com/pp8/#!/4592/presentation/578abstract

Or if they dig up a trans man, they may sex him as male anyway because of the sex-based anomalies in trans men's pelvic structure:

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22810992/

So yes, my bones may well indeed tell my truth in the future.

But you see how this works - it doesn't matter what science is presented to you if your mind is not open to what the science is telling you, so I could post a thousand links, invite a professor human physiology to join in and explain all the complexities in detail, but it won't make any difference.

Please do post your links. Please do show us the studies by Professors of Human Physiology. If you have been on MN for even a week, you know we read and watch and educate ourselves.

How else do we learn? I am an eternal student. But I ask that what you post does not use people with DSDs as the explainer. Can you do this?

@Alethiometrical

Your problem is that I simply don't believe I'm not female

The entitlement is laid bare here. Your mental health issue is not other women's problem: it is yours to deal with.

Most women are pretty compassionate towards those who experience the cognitive dissonance and the mind/body separation you experience. We try to be polite and accommodating, as we know that people like you are just trying to get along and live their lives with some sort of happiness and contentment. If surgically altering your male body, medicating it with artificial hormones, and dressing to try to look like a woman, help you live your life, and damp down the body dysphoria, then I wish you well.

But I will argue the point generally and in specific cases that men's fantasies about being female are not "my problem" and that no man or transwoman tells 50% of the population who and what we are. We've had enough of that from the Book of Genesis on. Women determine who women are.

Nothing about us without us, as Woman's Place UK says.

Thank you for your compassion - it's genuinely appreciated, but nothing you have said alters my belief that I am female, and I'm no more likely to behave as if I'm really a man just because someone else believes that to be the case. than you are.

Also, if these future archaeologist dig up a trans woman who transitioned at puberty with estrogen

Children are not permitted cross sex hormones at puberty in the U.K., and a recent High Court judgement has restricted the use of "puberty blockers".

@midgebabe

You nail it . Your mind is closed,

you don't think like a woman when it comes to sex

Personally, I'm asexual so I don't really think about sex at all.

Positrons.

How many legs does a human have ? How many eyes? How many ears? How many arms? How many sexes?