Can someone please explain... (trans)

[WednesdayAllTheWay]

So I've been trying to follow this trans situation for a while but now having skin in the game in the form of a child (and also noting through work how more and more people are identifying as the opposite gender) I need to understand it better.
Feel slightly embarrassed asking but:

1. How exactly do the words sex and gender differ in this area?
2. What reasons do trans people give for wanting to change their physical bodies? As in what do people believe they will get from this that they couldn't get in the body they were born with?
3. What are children being taught at school about this?

Thanks!

Sorry confused here . I didn't read all recent posts. So not sure whether Positrans is a transman or a transwoman

[quote Positrans]@HecatesCatsInXmasHats

"Males are socialised to believe they are superior, the default, lots of men think women are a bit daft, hence they are patronising to women."

True. Trans girls on the other hand are socialised to believe they are mentally ill, perverted deviants who shouldn't be allowed near other girls, should be prevented from transitioning, and that if you have sex with someone without telling them you're trans, then a severe beating or murder is justified. Trans girls generally grow up humiliated, crushed and terrified. Not sure your argument is a very good one.[/quote]
What argument?

@334bu

Sorry confused here . I didn't read all recent posts. So not sure whether Positrans is a transman or a transwoman

I think the language positrans uses makes it pretty obvious they are a transwoman! So a biological male, of the class that produces small gametes.

by virtue of the fact that I pass. So if we met, you would assume I am female, and I have forced you to see me that way by virtue of the medical interventions I have had, and a little bit of luck on the genetic front

You appear to be in the business of predicting how we would see you should we meet irl. Do you really think that visual appearances are the only factor in whether or not women perceive you as a woman or transwoman? How would you know that women would perceive you as a woman? The word "forced" is a strange one to use. You cannot "force" us to do anything, and it's strange that you would want to.

if you have sex with someone without telling them you're trans, then a severe beating or murder is justified.

For the record, whilst obviously threats of assault and murder are utterly atrocious, having sex with someone without revealing your trans status is rape.

@NancyDrawed "You assume that you pass. It may be that the people who interact with you are showing you the courtesy of pretending along with you."

If that were the case, why were they so horrible to me before I had transitioned far enough to pass? I have been punched in the head in public by men twice for being trans, in broad daylight in a city centre in mid afternoon. And regularly mocked, ridiculed and threatened. Now, everyone treats me the same as every other woman. What happened?

Just before the pandemic, a trans friend of mine had her crotch grabbed in a pub, and then her throat, and then the man's girlfriend punched her in the face, so it's not as if transphobia has magically disappeared.

@334bu

Sorry confused here . I didn't read all recent posts. So not sure whether Positrans is a transman or a transwoman

Neither.

@titchy

if you have sex with someone without telling them you're trans, then a severe beating or murder is justified.

For the record, whilst obviously threats of assault and murder are utterly atrocious, having sex with someone without revealing your trans status is rape.

That's like saying if a Jewish person has sex with a racist without telling them they're Jewish, it's rape. It's up to transphobes and associated bigots to be up front about their prejudice before things get intimate.

It's really interesting how identifiable sex tends to be from language use.

Obviously it's identifiable most of the time from voice - I've been startled to realise that transwomen on the radio are transwomen and not bog-standard men, usually when someone has said 'Thank you, Rachel' -- but the words on the page are also often 'gendered' in the sense that they identify how someone is influenced by the outside world.

Or is writing style genuinely innately different for males and females?

Hmm. That starts to get confusing.

That's like saying if a Jewish person has sex with a racist without telling them they're Jewish, it's rape. It's up to transphobes and associated bigots to be up front about their prejudice before things get intimate.

It's nothing like it at all as well you know. It is rape. Case law on this exists.

@Alethiometrical

You do though - you are completely aware of it.

I love the smell of mansplaining in the morning.

Are you suggesting that it is foolish to tell someone else what they are experiencing with regards to gender identity?

@titchy

That's like saying if a Jewish person has sex with a racist without telling them they're Jewish, it's rape. It's up to transphobes and associated bigots to be up front about their prejudice before things get intimate.

It's nothing like it at all as well you know. It is rape. Case law on this exists.

Rape isn't about law. If it was then rape in marriage didn't exist until it became illegal.

Rape isn't about law. If it was then rape in marriage didn't exist until it became illegal.

Try telling the judge and jury when you're up for a rape trial that rape isn't about the law.

Can I state again, for the benefit of others, having sex with someone without disclosing trans status is illegal. It is rape.

Are you suggesting that it is foolish to tell someone else what they are experiencing with regards to gender identity?

I think she was suggesting that men have a bizarre tendency to sound off to women under the mistaken belief they know better than a woman even about a subject where the woman is an expert... and even about the woman's own subjective experiences (that's where mansplaining can shade into gaslighting.) When you think about it, the entire concept of "gender identity" is just one giant mansplain. It is a myth invented by males who were presuming that they understand what women experience.

(Of course, pointing out when someone's subjective experiences don't and can't map on to material reality, isn't the same thing as telling them what their subjective experiences are. I sense your question may have resulted from you conflating those.)

Positrans

I am genuinely sorry to hear that you and your friend suffered verbal and physical abuse from people because of your appearance - no one deserves that.

But I do take issue with 'Now, everyone treats me the same as every other woman. What happened?' People may, in your experience, now treat you like you believe women are treated. But transwomen are in a group of their own. They are not a subset of women.

In answer to your point above though, maybe you are someone who now so completely passes as the opposite sex that it is impossible to tell in real life. I am very unlikely to ever meet you, so you are expecting me to take your word for it and I am afraid that I can't do that.

if you have sex with someone without telling them you're trans,

If you have sex with someone without informing them of what type of sex you are going to have with them, that falls under coercion.

I cannot believe that anyone who had any respect for their sexual partners would not have this discussion prior to any sexual relations.

Rape isn't about law.

Yes, rape is non consensual sexual intercourse using a penis to penetrate. It is covered by the law whether or not any conviction is made in an individual case. Rape within marriage was not considered to exist in law as it was not thought possible for a man to rape his wife as essentially he owned her. That didn't mean that there was no rape. What a bizarre statement.

It is the criminal offence of "sex by deception" to deceive people about your sex and people have gone to prison for it.

When you think about it, the entire concept of "gender identity" is just one giant mansplain. It is a myth invented by males who were presuming that they understand what women experience.

I completely agree.

That's like saying if a Jewish person has sex with a racist without telling them they're Jewish, it's rape. It's up to transphobes and associated bigots to be up front about their prejudice before things get intimate.

It's nothing remotely like that. As with most things, it isn't about someone being trans, it's about them being the opposite biological sex. But well done for showing your true colours, that anyone expecting their sexual orientation to be respected and to be able to consent is a bigot.

Biology is very complicated, but humans are either male or female. There are only two sexes. It's not possible to be born in the wrong body, we all get the body we are in, like it or not.

That some people have disorders of sexual development or gender dysphoria doesn't mean that there's anything other than two sexes.

There is absolutely no way, as we can see from the video posted, that sex can be described as a spectrum unless you use people with DSDs as your basis. People with these differences keep asking transpeople to stop using their bodies as explanations to fit the current narrative some activists are aggressively supporting - that sex is a spectrum.

They keep also bringing the phrase 'high school level biology' to shut down any disagreement.... ah. no.. I get my knowledge from published articles by Dr's of developmental and evolutionary biology who disagree that people with these rare differences explain a spectrum. They are male or female still. Each sex has its own spectrum of body differences, but sex is binary.

So, apart from this video link, is there any evidence to support what seems to be a pseudoscience theory that sex is on a spectrum? One that doesn't appropriate people with DSDs bodies? Or even hint at people with DSDs bodies?

I would love to add it to my reading list which is wide and varied.

It's up to transphobes and associated bigots to be up front about their prejudice before things get intimate.

No. It is all about the respect you have for your sexual partner. If a person is expecting to have PIV sex and you don't have a vagina, you are not showing that person any respect at all. I am not quite sure how you think this is about someone else's prejudices. This is about the deception perpetrated by the one not up front about the type of sex they are physically able and prepared to share.

I still feel like we haven’t established exactly how Posit has determined their ‘femaleness’.

It is my ‘gender identity’ doesn’t cover it as I honestly don’t understand what that is (and I really have thought about it). Are you able to expand on that concept?

What is it that defines your ‘femaleness’ please? Could it be that you feel ‘not male’ so by default you must be female?

I genuinely can’t divine ‘femaleness’ as anything other than being biologically female - please help me as I can see that you do have a strongly held belief but you haven’t explained what that is based on.

When an archaeologist digs up bones from 1000s of years ago osteologists can sex them according to differences between the male and female skeleton.

When there are no genitals, no hair, no muscle or tissue or external trappings, just our bones relay our sex.

No matter who you present as today your bones will tell the truth of your biological sex tomorrow.

Could it be that you feel ‘not male’ so by default you must be female?

Actually, I look forward to hearing the answer to this. Every conversation I have had, or read, (and not just on MN) this seems to be the explanation. Because I am not 'male', I must be 'female'. Because even though sex is on a spectrum, there really isn't any other sex that I can 'feel' like. Because some girls and women don't mensturate, and when they are women, don't go through pregnancy, 'I' can then be like a female with medical reasons why this might not happen.

Trans women should be in women's prisons because they are women

Well, the law doesn't necessarily support this: here's the expert opinion of Prof. Rosa Freedman (expert in international human rights law) to a recent House of Commons Select Committee, on whether transwomen are women:

In law, it says that a man is someone who is born male with biology in terms of chromosomes, gonads and genitalia, and a woman is someone who is born female with the same biological factors. Now, there is the legal fiction where a trans woman or a trans man may gain a gender recognition certificate that changes their legal sex but does not change their actual sex. Currently, in law, a trans woman is a trans woman unless she holds a GRC, in which case she is male, she is a trans woman, but, legally, she would be recognised as a woman for many but not all purposes.

That sounds complicated because the law is currently in a bit of a mess and that is why we need to change and streamline it. My opinion, therefore, changes depending on whether someone holds a GRC, but I stick in line with what the law currently says, which is that your sex is determined by biology.

The GRC confers the 'legal fiction' that a transitioned man (a transwoman) is a woman, and admissable to single-sex spaces, except where she is excluded as a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate purpose. Hospital single-sex wards, single-sex prisons, women's refuges, women's rape crisis services, and places such as public changing rooms and lavatories are all examples of single-sex services/places covered by this legal preservation of single-sex spaces.