Nowhere is safe from preferred pronouns

[RoxyGrey]

I've seen it all now, just logged into a zoom meeting of fairly senior colleagues to see one had as their zoom name [name] (she/her). It was all I could do to hide my eye-roll.

I mean, why on earth did they feel it necessary to put their pronouns there?? Notably, no one else had theirs in their zoom name, even though some do have it in their email signature. It's not like there was any ambiguity in their appearance either, they were visibly feminine presenting so it's unlikely anyone would be confused.

So is this the next step in compelled speech? Anyone been asked/told to do this yet?

@DidoLamenting

Why pronouns plural?

If I say my pronouns are "she" doesn’t her, her and hers follow without saying?

And if I say "he" doesn’t him, his and his following without saying?

To allow for the construction of 'neopronouns', perhaps?

Why pronouns plural?

Exactly. The fact that we have to say "she/her" and not just "she" or "she/her/her/hers/herself" just shows how stupid and ideological this whole thing is.

@CrazyCatMamma

My work have suggested putting them in email signatures - only a suggestion at the minute but loads have. If it becomes compulsory, my pronouns will be I/me as if I don’t give a shite what people refer to me as when I’m not there!

Yeh, good response, I was just thinking that if I'm asked, I'll say ''I don't mind'' as honestly, it should be obvious but if it's not obvious, I think the best line to take is ''whatever you like, I don't mind'' and if they call me he/him to make a point, I will let it go!

oh god help us are we really heading in this direction!

[quote WouldBeGood]@babbaloushka I naively thought neopronouns was a joke...[/quote]
Anyone who expects others to use them has to be taking the piss (whether in a litter tray or not).

Pronouns exist solely to make communication easier and more fluid. As soon as they cease to do that, they're useless and the noun should be used instead. In writing, the shorthand of using initials can work well - I don't just mean re avoiding unusual or missexed pronouns but in general if you're writing re several different people on a team where he/she may rapidly become ambiguous and you've got Too Many Daves (or whatever the modern equivalent is).

I don't understand how this affects you. That person's choice is theirs and theirs alone. You do what you want, they'll do what they want. It's a total non-issue and it's this kind of pointless thread which does make the FWR boards appear anti-trans and not much else.

I'm not sure I've read the reason for declared pronouns in this thread. As I understand it, it was originally for non-passing trans people. So if you have a transwoman who looks like a bloke it's to remind people that they are to be perceived as a woman. However, if declared pronouns are only used by trans people then they simply work as a flag saying "trans". To avoid making the trans person stand out, if everyone declares pronouns then declared pronouns don't work as a flag saying "trans". Similarly with non-binary, if someone's "they" pronouns weren't declared people would perceive them as a non-feminine appearing young woman or some such.

As other people have said, the real problem is we're in a mad world where we're supposed to believe that people can change sex, and not going along with this can involve being sanctioned at work or in society. Overall I'd say getting someone's acquired pronouns wrong isn't as bad as people having their working life damaged because they've been maliciously labelled as a "bigot".

Yes @ErrolTheDragon, makes sense.

I find this all very interesting.

It affects everyone by the acceptance of this so it’s not as simple as saying, oh, just leave them to it. That’s how this stuff escalates.

A warm welcome to all the new posters. I appreciate you coming on this board to tell us this is a complete non-issue that doesn't affect us.

@DetectiveRandySomething

I don't understand how this affects you. That person's choice is theirs and theirs alone. You do what you want, they'll do what they want. It's a total non-issue and it's this kind of pointless thread which does make the FWR boards appear anti-trans and not much else.

Coercion to declare pronouns does affect women, though - bias when there are female signifiers is a well known effect.

Why are people always dismissive of people who refuse to buy into this bullshit?

Yes, a work Zoom conference is banal and doesn’t really affect anyone. But to comply and to not protest is to normalise it, and to normalise it is to also normalise the description of violent males as “she/her” in news reports, it blinds people to the fact the person wanting into a women’s prison is actually a violent male, and it disguised the fact it’s actually a male who is beating teenage girls in sprinting competitions. I won’t be complicit in that, and it starts with banal examples like this.

I also won’t have my speech compelled by anyone for anything and again, if you let the banal examples go, then your open to punishment if you try and describe prisons, sports, refuges, crime accurately. If you allow yourself to be compelled about small things, then big things follow. I will no sooner lie to myself or anyone else about someone’s biological sex anymore than I will describe Trump as the greatest President ever like he wants us to.

So yes it affects me. It affects everyone.

I don't understand how this affects you. That person's choice is theirs and theirs alone. You do what you want, they'll do what they want. It's a total non-issue and it's this kind of pointless thread which does make the FWR boards appear anti-trans and not much else

If this were true there wouldn't be a problem. But it's not true is it. If people just quietly got on and did their own thing it would never had got to this. But gender ideology doesn't work like that. It requires unwilling participants to be forced to be a part of it.

Brilliant post @arabellascott

I think a lot of posters here (like me) simply don’t believe in gender ideology and therefore we won’t use its language.

I also don’t believe in horoscopes but I’m not anti-Taureans

@DetectiveRandySomething

I don't understand how this affects you. That person's choice is theirs and theirs alone. You do what you want, they'll do what they want. It's a total non-issue and it's this kind of pointless thread which does make the FWR boards appear anti-trans and not much else.

It might be their choice but they’re telling other people what to say, when you’re talking about them so then you would not necessarily be doing “what you want” , would you? I was originally of the opinion that it was respectful to call say, Caitlyn Jenner she/her but when you’re presented with someone who doesn’t look any different from when they “were” a man, it just won’t compute in my brain. Try saying “yes” when you mean “no” and see how often you get it wrong. My daughter was berating me for not getting it right with Sam Smith so I retorted that she is often getting “I” and “me” mixed up, despite my untold reminders!

My issue with the pronouns thing is the implication that sex/gender is something we can just identify into and out of. Having to constantly state I am "she/her" suggests I identify with and accept all of the baggage that goes along with that. I don't.

Gendered pronouns are stupid and outdated but they are such an engrained part of our language now that it's not possible to just switch them off. By telling everyone I am "they/them" I don't do anything to change this system, I just make life difficult for everyone around me who, understandably, sees me as "she".

Someone in our organisation is calling for people to be disciplined because they are being addressed as ‘mate’ or ‘sir’ on the telephone.

The individual concerned has chosen a unisex name and sounds like a man. They look very manly. Their only nod to anything feminine is a swipe of lipstick.

They are demanding to be addressed as miss. By everyone. They are nudging 50. Miss is ambitious. I haven’t been called Miss since my 20s.

I appreciate that pronouns on a teams or zoom meeting would be advantageous in this situation. But this person is taking a delight in screaming of the injustice of not being addressed as Miss on the phone or in person and the company are listening and acting on it.

Oh and they don’t want to be called by their new name because they ‘know’ that people will be saying it in the ‘masculine way’ to poke fun.

People are now so uncomfortable that they are trying to avoid dealing with this person as they are afraid of accidentally saying something wrong.

So guess what? They are saying they are being treated differently and shunned and they feel bullied.

This is so much of a non-issue eh? Everyone walking on eggshells because of one individual.

As @Kaliorphic said

if people just quietly got on and did their own thing it would never had got to this. But gender ideology doesn't work like that. It requires unwilling participants to be forced to be a part of it

See, that’s so weird. I chose Ms after I reverted to my maiden name as I’m a similar age and Miss felt weird.

This is so much of a non-issue eh? Everyone walking on eggshells because of one individual.

In other situations when people feel they have to walk on eggshells for fear of how a person may negatively react towards them if they ‘get it wrong’, we tend to call it coercive control and emotional abuse.

The individual concerned has chosen a unisex name and sounds like a man. They look very manly. Their only nod to anything feminine is a swipe of lipstick.

You are talking about a man wanting to be referred to as "Miss"? Why aren't names used? I introduce myself whenever I answer the phone?

I could guess the sex of most people I speak to on the phone but I don't need to know it, just a name.

testing.

We do generally use names. Some people revert to saying things along the lines of ‘that’s grand mate’ or whatever. No malice intended. I get it. And ‘love’. Not necessarily from people within the company. No offence is taken by me or 99% of my colleagues.

The person concerned has a unisex name. They. don’t want anyone using it because they think people will use it in the masculine way....

No they wouldn’t. It would just be their name.

But they want us all to say ‘miss’.

I can’t see why you would have a name and not want to use it.

I guess testing because using "miss" is part of the validation that seems to be the be and end all for certain TW

luckily Im self employed so dont have to do any of this but I eye roll every time I work with an organisation and see the pronouns in email, especially if they're the sort of company that bangs on about bekind/include pronouns but does eff all to address other diversity issues e.g. making their building accessible

I’m sorry I can’t explain it better.

They’d have been better off changing their name to Miss.

I was in a recent meeting that was in relation to Somalia. 10 or so men from the Government, me, and a nice American lady with she/her. I did wonder if there was ever any doubt from the participants in Somalia.

We have ‘be kind’ *biscuits. Hand wringingly so.

No untoward behaviour is tolerated (whatever untoward means) if you are of a different religion, orientation or identification.

Bullying is fine though if the victim is a woman.

They need to learn to say "please call me miss" then. I've never met anyone not willing to use their own name around adults.

I used to tell kids at school to call me miss, but I never took offence at the occasional sir or mum.