Nowhere is safe from preferred pronouns

[RoxyGrey]

I've seen it all now, just logged into a zoom meeting of fairly senior colleagues to see one had as their zoom name [name] (she/her). It was all I could do to hide my eye-roll.

I mean, why on earth did they feel it necessary to put their pronouns there?? Notably, no one else had theirs in their zoom name, even though some do have it in their email signature. It's not like there was any ambiguity in their appearance either, they were visibly feminine presenting so it's unlikely anyone would be confused.

So is this the next step in compelled speech? Anyone been asked/told to do this yet?

DH has a meeting recently with a very woke crowd. I tried to get him to say that his pronouns were sex based like his privilege. He, probably wisely, ignored me.

@StandUpStraight

I see it but I’m in a big multinational tech co. The one I really don’t get is where someone who is obviously a woman (for example) says her pronouns are “she/they”. I mean, what? Surely if you’re fine with “she”, the obvious choice that accords with natural speech, you don’t need an alternative that absolutely nobody is going to use anyway?

A quick Google shows that some languages have two words for 'they', Spanish, for instance has ellas and ellos, depending on whether it's a bunch of her-people or he-people. I wonder which one she/they would go for?

My work have suggested putting them in email signatures - only a suggestion at the minute but loads have. If it becomes compulsory, my pronouns will be I/me as if I don’t give a shite what people refer to me as when I’m not there!

@Stellaris22

I fully understand stating 'they/them' as preferred pronouns as that is never obvious. I find it's great for the person to state that straight away to avoid awkward situations.

Regardless of your views on this, it's about making sure everyone is comfortable. I'm more than happy to be told a persons favoured pronouns.

It's not harming or affecting you. It's at best a mild irritation/annoyance, but for that person makes them feel more secure. It's certainly not worth getting angry about.

Nonsense. It's not about making anyone feel comfortable, it's about narcissism.

Ah, I see.

If you think it's narcissism to request people refer to you in a way that makes you feel comfortable, then go ahead.

Could argue it's attention seeking to overly draw attention to your disgust at it when all the other person is doing is making a polite request.

If you just accepted it I think you would find the other person wouldn't make a fuss either.

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

Felt it was timely

If you just accepted it I think you would find the other person wouldn't make a fuss either

Ahh, if we just accepted it then it would all be ok. Be kind right?

Nah.

Well, yes. Be kind.

Or be the type of person who gets offended and worked up over a basic request. It's not hurting you.

(But I get the futility of arguing 'be kind' about this issue on MN).

@Stellaris22

Ah, I see.

If you think it's narcissism to request people refer to you in a way that makes you feel comfortable, then go ahead.

Could argue it's attention seeking to overly draw attention to your disgust at it when all the other person is doing is making a polite request.

If you just accepted it I think you would find the other person wouldn't make a fuss either.

Who has suggested expressing disgust?

Some people want me to change the way I describe myself. I don't want to. Why do their feelings trump mine?

Are you being asked to change the way you describe yourself? Where? Why would you be made to do this?

It's more about having the ability to state a preference outright, rather than finding a way to bring it up.

For that person it takes a lot of the stress away and means they can focus on work.

@Stellaris22

Are you being asked to change the way you describe yourself? Where? Why would you be made to do this?

It's more about having the ability to state a preference outright, rather than finding a way to bring it up.

For that person it takes a lot of the stress away and means they can focus on work.

It has nothing to do with making people feel comfortable. It's a narcissistic power play.

I was asked to state my preferred pronouns and they nagged me about it when I tried to ignore them, so I decided to out-woke them.

This is magnificent, Grooticle. What did they say?

I am very sorry that you really believe this is narcissism and attention seeking.

It really isn't. Maybe try discussing with people in your work meetings why they feel the need to do this, they could explain it a lot better than I can.

It isn't a power play, it's about that person feeling secure and safe. They want to get on with their job and work discussions without fear.

Honestly, getting worked up and annoyed about it isn't what they want. Please don't be upset by a simple request.

Equally being asked to state your preferred pronouns is unacceptable, I wouldn't be comfortable being made to do this.

Having the freedom to do this yourself, without pressure, should be allowed and accepted.

It has nothing to do with making people feel comfortable. It's a narcissistic power play

It's absolutely this.

Why though?

Why would someone do this as a power play?

It's a request.

Does that person continually talk about it during a meeting? Or do they not make a big deal and get on with the meeting?

@Stellaris22

Why though?

Why would someone do this as a power play?

It's a request.

Does that person continually talk about it during a meeting? Or do they not make a big deal and get on with the meeting?

It's forcing others to act as if they share your beliefs when they don't, with the justification that the effect on them of acting against their values is less important than the effect on you of being made aware that they disagree with yours.

It's like someone from a culture that requires women to cover their hair demanding that all women of any culture at their workplace cover their hair.

It's a request

Yes and the request is rejected.

Or do they not make a big deal and get on with the meeting?

Well if it's not a big deal then they don't need to try and get others to buy into it then do they.

If you just accepted it I think you would find the other person wouldn't make a fuss either.

That is a bit manipulative, now isn't it?

I don't care if someone else wants to advertise their pronouns - I will make a vague effort to be agreeable but in all honesty I'm likely to either ignore their pronouns if they're not reality-based, or forget them, because realistically who could honestly remember all the various intricacies of everyone else's constructed social persona - and why should we be expected to remake the real world to suit someone's fantasies and sensitivities?

It is completely up to me to choose not to accept the nonsense idea that anyone can change sex or somehow opt out of sex altogether. The basic premise of this is both risible and dangerous. It threatens to undermine and dismantle women's rights altogether. So, no, I won't 'just accept it'. We all live in this society together, we all are entitled to discuss how it works. It's not up to one section of the populace to suddenly declare the rules of societal interaction have changed and everyone else just absolutely must 'accept it' and do as instructed.

You'll need to present a very convincing argument of why I should accept it, and how it is better to work on this fabricated version of reality than the one that most people around the world currently operate with.

I'm not at all convinced this is anything to do with making anyone 'comfortable', it's about signalling that one is in a certain group. It won't last, because it's already bowing under the weight of cognitive dissonance and it's frankly just not workable in the real world.

Feel free to reject the request (unnecessary, but sure).

But you could argue that making a big deal of the request is much more attention seeking, turning it back onto yourself.

Someone makes a simple request: other person rejects this and goes onto MN to complain and talk about themselves and their annoyance at a basic request.

But sure, it's the original person that's attention seeking.

Next time, take a deep breath, think: is this anything other than a minor inconvenience? Get on with the meeting, I can bet you'll be more productive.

Brilliant post Arabella

The onus is on those who are seeking to change language itself to prove why this change is required
We don’t need to prove anything
You believe in it, we don’t so you justify it

Thanks for the tips. But you'll find people are free to discuss pronoun usage, the implications and how problematic current conventions are, if we so please.

Feel free to reject the request (unnecessary, but sure

Forced pronouns are unnecessary.

Next time, take a deep breath, think: is this anything other than a minor inconvenience? Get on with the meeting, I can bet you'll be more productive

It's more than a minor inconvenience. And I won't be inconveniencing myself. I think what would be more productive is if people stopped bringing their whole selves to work and expecting others to celebrate that. I'm not interested. Just get on with the job that people are paid to do. And be productive.