Nowhere is safe from preferred pronouns

[RoxyGrey]

I've seen it all now, just logged into a zoom meeting of fairly senior colleagues to see one had as their zoom name [name] (she/her). It was all I could do to hide my eye-roll.

I mean, why on earth did they feel it necessary to put their pronouns there?? Notably, no one else had theirs in their zoom name, even though some do have it in their email signature. It's not like there was any ambiguity in their appearance either, they were visibly feminine presenting so it's unlikely anyone would be confused.

So is this the next step in compelled speech? Anyone been asked/told to do this yet?

Good post Arabella.

The vast majority of people I see displaying their pronouns are announcing the pronouns that you would expect on the basis of their sex. They're not announcing their pronouns because their pronouns need announcing; they're announcing their pronouns because they've been on a training course that tells them that announcing pronouns is trans inclusive.

Absolutely, I've noticed this too. We have a "woke team" (not the actual name, think fundraising, awareness etc) at work made up of mostly women and one man, I'm pretty sure all the women have pronouns listed in their email signatures but the guy doesn't, even though he is definitely the most preachy.

As an aside it hasn't escaped my notice that seemingly every event this team celebrates or wants to raise awareness is linked to transsexuals in some way. International woman's day= "all" women, pride (I understand why, but the focus should be on all members of the LGBTQ community) and they published a piece on black trans authors during black history month. I have come to the conclusion that they're a bit obsessed with the issue and that it won't be long before it's suggested that signatures get changed. If it happens, I think I may just forget to update mine.

Given the evidence that women are treated worse than men (less likely to be taken seriously etc) in certain industries, its no wonder some women don't want to have to publicly state their pronouns.

I wouldn't critise other people for doing so, and would always use the pronouns people requested. But I'm not going to be stating mine. And if pressed I would politely question whether if I used he/him they would start paying me more as per the sex pay gap.

I think what would be more productive is if people stopped bringing their whole selves to work and expecting others to celebrate that. I'm not interested. Just get on with the job that people are paid to do. And be productive.

That ^

It was apparently recommended by an NEU LGBTQ conference recently that people should put their pronouns on their Zoom ID as well as email signature, so this was suggested by a senior person at my school recently. Luckily he said it was optional, so I've ignored it.

It seems like a lot more than a simple request.

A lot of offence seems to be taken by some if anyone doesn't comply. Even if they try to comply but forget ocasionally.
People (women) have been cancelled or lost their jobs for less, and Maya Forstater's case shows that this is a genuine risk.

It might be ok if I personally knew one or two people who needed their pronouns thought about before speaking, but with large numbers of colleagues I would find it impossible. Literally impossible. That makes it a trap that could cost me my job and more at any time.

RoxyGrey

"compelled speach is exactly what it is"

Please be brave enough to stand against.

If they want to display pronouns, fine. The issue I have with it is the baggage that often comes with it - the herd-like mentality and the thought that someone not doing it is a bad person or not good in some way.

Why pronouns plural?

If I say my pronouns are "she" doesn’t her, her and hers follow without saying?

And if I say "he" doesn’t him, his and his following without saying?

Sorry meant if I say my pronoun is "she" etc. etc.

It’s awful. I would like dh to get a job closer to home as the drive tires him - he’s in his 50s. But when I read posts like this, I wonder if the drive is worth it. His company is not woke at all. Thank goodness.

For the person who asked - I never got a response to my “out-Woking” but I didn’t get nagged about the issue again. I also noticed some of the wokies quietly deleted their statement about pronouns from their email addresses.

@Grooticle

For the person who asked - I never got a response to my “out-Woking” but I didn’t get nagged about the issue again. I also noticed some of the wokies quietly deleted their statement about pronouns from their email addresses.

I also noticed some of the wokies quietly deleted their statement about their pronouns from their email address.

This is classic. Your tactic work and needs repeating up and down the country.

@Siameasy interesting article, thanks

@babbaloushka I naively thought neopronouns was a joke...

@babbaloushka

One girl at daughter's school goes by kitten/kittenself. Apparently these are 'neopronouns'.

Ah that’s nothing new, 15 years ago when I was at uni and in with an alternative crowd (pagan society, rock soc, goths and yes LGB soc - didn’t have the T in the name then!) it was called Otherkin, I had a few friends who believed they had animal souls in human bodies and wrote in depth on their livejournals about it all, I knew a girl who was a wolf, and a bloke who was a cat - he would turn up to nights out with a spiky cat collar on and took to sitting crouched on the floor in bars/clubs etc whilst his girlfriend patted him on the head. They would tag along to LGB nights. I was there to cop off with women, they were there as no one batted an eyelid at her holding him on a lead whilst he purred.

Anyway kittengirl hasn’t invented anything new!

I wonder what became of catboy though. Lost touch. He’s probably an accountant or something now. Doubt he’s on zoom calls with “goodkitty/meow” as his pronouns.

I wonder what became of catboy though. Lost touch. He’s probably an accountant or something now. Doubt he’s on zoom calls with “goodkitty/meow” as his pronouns.

Or maybe he engages in kitten play at Pride while his kids play in the litter tray.

@Stellaris22

I fully understand stating 'they/them' as preferred pronouns as that is never obvious. I find it's great for the person to state that straight away to avoid awkward situations.

Regardless of your views on this, it's about making sure everyone is comfortable. I'm more than happy to be told a persons favoured pronouns.

It's not harming or affecting you. It's at best a mild irritation/annoyance, but for that person makes them feel more secure. It's certainly not worth getting angry about.

But does it really make them more secure?

For those who are not using it as power play, it might in fact lead to more anxiety. Once you decide, or are told, that you can and should control the inner perceptions of others and their speech in relation to you, well you have a massive undertaking right there, very stressful. Controlling what others think and say is going to be very hard work.

Then you are always alert to anyone who is not falling into line and using the words you have told them to.

Also, being honest, it must really put up barriers. Once people become aware that you are so dependent on them thinking and saying what you have “requested” despite it going against reality/grammar as we have generally understood it until recently, surely they are going to avoid you as much as possible to avoid the possibility of triggering such a fragile and demanding person?

If I find I have to inconvenience someone I generally feel uncomfortable about it. Those who wish to “inconvenience” everyone else at all times (and not just one person in one instance) by compelling speech, perception and even belief, how are they reconciling that natural discomfort? How can this possibly make them feel safer and more secure?

I’m early fifties and if my work suggested it I’d simply refuse. (I’m weary with work as it is). I can’t see it happening now - my boss is so opposite to woke that he’d tell anybody where to go - but who knows

I was watching a glinner video on YouTube and what really resonated with me is that he said forcing pronouns was like that quiz where a word says ‘green’ but is written in red ink and then next word says ‘blue’ in blue ink, next word says ‘red’ in blue ink etc and you have to say the colour as quickly as you can and not the word that’s written. It’s so hard to do because your brain is seeing the colour and the word at the same time, sometimes matches and sometimes at odds with each other so your brain can’t cope! I’ve tried that quiz thing - it’s so hard. And that’s what pronouns are like .

I do a music hobby group thing - and there was a chap who decided to come out as a trans woman. He was a very big , large built male so as a trans woman was similar. We were told their new name and warned before they arrived. Everybody was bending over backwards to remember but the chap I was sat next to was asking me and we were stumbling over descriptions and pronouns like nobody’s business. I’m glad nobody heard us as I’m sure we sometimes used the wrong pronoun. We were trying desperately to not say anything wrong though.

I do a music hobby group thing - and there was a chap who decided to come out as a trans woman. He was a very big , large built male so as a trans woman was similar. We were told their new name and warned before they arrived. Everybody was bending over backwards to remember but the chap I was sat next to was asking me and we were stumbling over descriptions and pronouns like nobody’s business. I’m glad nobody heard us as I’m sure we sometimes used the wrong pronoun. We were trying desperately to not say anything wrong though

And there is the problem. We are being asked to collude with a lie and to police our speech to do so.

In my 20s, I was big into clubbing, and there were quite a few gay men who were intentionally effeminate (which I don't mean perjoratively) and who used female pronouns when socialising. But no one was expected to believe they were actually women. We used female pronouns for them when we remembered. If we forgot, no biggie.

Now, it's totally different. Pronouns are a purity trap. They force us constantly to police our language and to pretend to believe something we know to be untrue. That is harmful. Language matters. Objective reality matters.

Various staff at work have English as a 2nd language - they quite often come out with a real mish mash of mistaken pronouns. I don't think anybody really minds, but I can only imagine extra counter-intuitive rules would make everything ten times harder for them.

Now, it's totally different. Pronouns are a purity trap. They force us constantly to police our language and to pretend to believe something we know to be untrue. That is harmful. Language matters. Objective reality matters

It's madness isn't it. I couldn't imagine going to my place of work and making them address me as something that I quite clearly am not. That wouldn't make me feel safe and comfortable at all. Even if they did decide to go along with my delusion and agree, they know I'm not what I'm saying I am, they might keep a straight face, but they know, everyone knows. And they may talk about it amongst themselves when I'm not there, they may keep it to themselves, a minority might agree that I am what I say I am, others will go home and snigger or complain about the forced speech to their friends, partners, or online forums. Does that really make people safe and comfortable? really? I can't imagine for one moment that it would. Seems to me these people don't really care what others think as long as they put up and shut up. And if the Scottish hate crime bill ever came into play, then the Scotland couldn't even talk about it in their own homes. This is a very authoritarian and controlling ideology and it's one I won't be buying in to or supporting. People can dress how they want, I absolutely don't care about that. But don't even try and dragging me into that ideology and making me part of it. Because I will not be participating.

One girl at daughter's school goes by kitten/kittenself.

No one's asked DD(7) her pronouns yet but this would probably be her answer. We're well into her second year of identifying as a cat; I frequently use 'kitty' as a pronoun!

DS is as cynical as his mother about all this and tells me he identifies as an attack helicopter..