Impact of 2-child benefit cap on abortion decisions

[niceberg]

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/dec/03/two-child-limit-on-benefits-a-key-factor-in-many-abortion-decisions-says-charity

This was inevitable and as such must have been seen as an acceptable outcome by the government when it was introduced.

@Cattenberg do you know what the benefit cap amount is

I didn't know there was a benefit cap and it seems fair in principal (ie the average family income amount) but I agree that some people would have embarked on plans to extend their families further before the pandemic - when they could afford it. So there should have been a period of grace, surely?

@AlwaysLatte the benefit cap came in , in 2017 i think . Children born before that aren't capped at 2 .

It depends on the benefit(s) being claimed, doesn’t it? And your personal/financial circumstances. But my understanding is that in most circumstances, if you have a third child, you can’t claim the additional amount that would support that child.

I’m happy to be corrected, though. It’s several years since I worked for the DWP.

@jj1968 if the rich are incentivised to have children, how come working class families are so much more likely to have 3 or more children?

They receive a society that is carefully calibrated to keep them as rich as possible

What?

Who do you think these rich are then?
I don't receive child benefit for my children. Both DH and I grew up in grinding poverty,

@timeforanewstart
So you accept that happily married women on modest incomes sometimes forget to take their pill and accidentally get pregnant with babies they would probably have kept in previous decades with the aid of a very small amount of benefits - benefits that the parents of many of the people on this thread, or they themselves, would have had the option to claim over the years.

Yet you want to deprive them of the options open to previous generations with the two child limit and force them to feel no choice but to abort a child that may otherwise have been welcome and loved because... why? The birth rate has hugely declined since universal child benefits were introduced in the 1970s and were still steadily declining prior to the introduction of this policy. As I explained before, birth rates decline when living standards rise as women have more opportunities and choices beyond getting married and having children. Child benefits help reduce the overall birth rate by raising living standards and helping children escape poverty.

This isn't just happening in the UK. The birth rate is going down globally as living standards rise. An increasing percentage of population growth is now coming from people living longer, aging populations, rather than the number of children born. Forcing women to have abortions isn't going to stop the population growth through aging. It's just cruel and unfair. The last child born doesn't overpopulate the planet by itself, it only does so because of all the rest of us already here not dying as young as we used to do, so we all need to work together to use resources more sustainably and stop punishing young generations for merely wanting families and children just like all those who came before them did.

Oops. The type where parents ate one meal a day so the children had food, clothes were given to us by the church, no car, no phone, after fees were introduced for university, my brother went there on a grant because my parents income was so low (my father was disabled by then, but working poor throughout my childhood).

How exactly have I received a society that keeps me rich?

[quote Ohalrightthen]@jj1968 if the rich are incentivised to have children, how come working class families are so much more likely to have 3 or more children?[/quote]
Because you don't need to be incentivised to have children you just need to have sex. And i'm not even sure that's true anyway, I'd be interested in seeing stats.

@nemeton

Oops. The type where parents ate one meal a day so the children had food, clothes were given to us by the church, no car, no phone, after fees were introduced for university, my brother went there on a grant because my parents income was so low (my father was disabled by then, but working poor throughout my childhood).

How exactly have I received a society that keeps me rich?

Are you rich now?

@Prestel for years people didn't get benefits at all , my parents and grandparents didn't
Yes you may have one accidental pregnancy but as another poster said who has a large family there is ways to make it work
Benefit cap is like £20000 and can be more if claiming tax credits or uc and working .

@Babdoc

Why is this seen as a problem? All kinds of families have to make decisions about whether they can afford an unplanned third child, not just ones on benefits. I was glad about the two child cap - it prevents abusive men fathering endless children on trapped abused women in order to live it up on the benefits - which they have no intention of spending on the poor wife or kids. And I remember my own hospital ancillary staff being angry at patients on benefits with six children, while they could barely afford two on their salary. The cap is perfectly reasonable- nobody needs more than two kids, and our planet is already overpopulated and suffering environmental damage and global warming as a result.

Only the children of the poor will affect the planet, causing overpopulation and environmental damage and global warming.

I know this is true as this cap is effectively only applied to the poor. If the children of the wealthier people could possibly cause any harm we'd have made a 2 child limit for everyone.

A two child limit for all would never pass into law would it.

@jj1968 well then perhaps deincentivising will help! It is morally reprehensible to keep popping out kids you cannot support. Contraception is widely known about, promoted and available, as is abortion.

@LastTrainEast people can have more than 2 anyone and many on benefits still do as they make cuts in other ways
No one is saying anyone can't have but should state fund someone not working and having 6 children
What if we all decided to do that who's paying then?

@timeforanewstart

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Allowances_Act_1945
The Family Allowances Act 1945 (8 & 9 Geo. VI c. 41) was a British Act of Parliament and was the first law to provide child benefit in the United Kingdom

Of course with the pandemic some people with 3 or more children who were quite well off will now be unexpectedly poor. They will then be told that benefits will not be paid for the 3rd child and they presumably should stop feeding it.

@LastTrainEast cap on child benefit is actually only applied to those on a higher income , over £50000 one earner and you get no child benefit at all

[quote Ohalrightthen]@jj1968 well then perhaps deincentivising will help! It is morally reprehensible to keep popping out kids you cannot support. Contraception is widely known about, promoted and available, as is abortion.[/quote]
More morally reprehensible than leaving kids to grow hungry and living in awful conditions in temporary accommodation because their parents made a mistake, or were just unlucky?

@LastTrainEast jobs can go at anytime though , its something you have to always consider
A couple with one child and a high mortgage who loose a job won't get their mortgage paid as benefits doesn't cover whole mortgage payments
Shortterm Uc has been slightly increased due to the pandemiv

timeforanewstart Well notice that I was responding to the claim that it was good for the planet.

I do get the arguments, but benefits are worked out so that there is no spare money. To feed/clothe an extra child you must take it from the others. And as I go on to point out some people have the 3rd child with every expectation of being able to afford it and then disaster strikes.

It's a rule written without thinking it through and really it would be fairer to make a 2 child limit for everyone. But it would never pass if it applied to people who matter.

I just think of my MIL. She had 4 kids on a low income. I asked her once if they didn't have CB for 3rd and 4th child, would she had them? She said that she didn't even look at the welfare provisions when she had the kids, she just had them. And she would have even more if she could, despite struggling. Its a religious thing for her. Haredi Jews have 8 kids despite living in 2 bed flats.

I suspect most people who have the 3rd and 4th think similarly so the child benefit cap just means the kids have less.

@LastTrainEast or a system that also looks at what you have paid in
In a few european countries if you have worked and paid into system if you become unemployed, you get a percentage of your earnings for a few months
Thing is I know people on benefits who have had a third despite the cap and manage fine , then others seem to really struggle we should be looking at why this is
Rent will play a huge part , but what else , how can we help
Throwing more money isn't always the answer

@jj1968 well look at it like this then. i can't afford a 3rd child, and if i had one, the government wouldn't pay for it, as i wouldn't qualify for benefits. So why should a woman on benefits have her 3rd child, that she can't afford, paid for by the government? why does she get to have as many kids as she like and have the taxpayer foot the bill,when im limited only to how many i can afford?

[quote Ohalrightthen]@jj1968 well look at it like this then. i can't afford a 3rd child, and if i had one, the government wouldn't pay for it, as i wouldn't qualify for benefits. So why should a woman on benefits have her 3rd child, that she can't afford, paid for by the government? why does she get to have as many kids as she like and have the taxpayer foot the bill,when im limited only to how many i can afford?[/quote]
If you wouldn't qualify for benefits despite having three children then you are considerably better off than someone on benefits in the same situation. So it's not that you can't afford a third child compared someone on a lower income, it's that you have chosen not to have a third child because of the impact it would have on your lifestyle.

[quote timeforanewstart]@LastTrainEast cap on child benefit is actually only applied to those on a higher income , over £50000 one earner and you get no child benefit at all [/quote]
Over 60k isnt it