Impact of 2-child benefit cap on abortion decisions

[niceberg]

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/dec/03/two-child-limit-on-benefits-a-key-factor-in-many-abortion-decisions-says-charity

This was inevitable and as such must have been seen as an acceptable outcome by the government when it was introduced.

I doubt the cap makes feckless men stop impregnating women.

I am unhappy about the cap, because the sad reality is that many children are not conceived through enthusiastically consensual sex. Women up and down the country are, or have been, in abusive relationships and many of them are too beaten down to recognise it as abuse.

On FWR, I think we all know how low rape convictions are, even though the DPP only takes forward cases with the highest chance of success. How does a woman convince a benefits assessor that her third child was conceived by rape, but yes, she did stay with the man for a further five years before she LTB?

There is absolutely no chance that every woman who is morally entitled to a rape exemption will get it, even assuming she feels capable of telling a complete stranger about it.

Further, I'm passionately pro-choice. I think every child should be a wanted child, and every termination should be a wanted termination. I know the arguments about how we all have to manage our circumstances, but the idea of a woman terminating a very much wanted accidental pregnancy because of this rule change makes me ill.

I would much prefer it if we brought down the accidental pregnancy rate with robust campaigns on

1. consent,
2. sex education and how contraceptives work (particularly focusing on boys who seem to think "the pill" is magic), and
3. reiterating that everyone should be using condoms as standard as well as hormonal contraceptives in new relationships. A few scary viral campaigns about the effects of vatious STIs wouldn't go amiss. It is bloody stupid to shag someone off tinder without a condom. You have no idea who he was shagging last week.

I don't think there is an easy answer to this problem, but I do think anything that affects women and children is a feminist issue.

It is hard enough for a mother to leave an abusive partner, without adding stark poverty into the mix.

The ‘having unlimited children as a way to have a life-long income and avoid working’ was most definitely utilised fully by many families in the past. That just couldn’t continue. It’s sad that abortion is one of the alternatives to that but we are overpopulated and the responsibility lies with the individual to afford the child, not that state.

Perhaps being responsible and responsible for it getting pregnant in the first place should be the focus, rather than on opting to blame the government?

@Babdoc

Why is this seen as a problem? All kinds of families have to make decisions about whether they can afford an unplanned third child, not just ones on benefits. I was glad about the two child cap - it prevents abusive men fathering endless children on trapped abused women in order to live it up on the benefits - which they have no intention of spending on the poor wife or kids. And I remember my own hospital ancillary staff being angry at patients on benefits with six children, while they could barely afford two on their salary. The cap is perfectly reasonable- nobody needs more than two kids, and our planet is already overpopulated and suffering environmental damage and global warming as a result.

I totally agree.

Those uncomfortable with abortion can always abstain from sex or use multiple forms of contraception and the morning-after pill.

Unfettered human reproduction has got to become a thing of the past for the survival of all species.

If you are going to use the carrot and stick approach, there had better be a carrot in place before you use the stick.

Women who are already being abused by abusive men will continue to be abused with no support and no way to escape. They will continue to have children they can't afford and they and the children are the ones that will suffer.
Women who are able to plan (access contraception and stomach an abortion) will continue to do so.

The only good thing I can think of that comes out of this is that they can't both remove abortion rights and limit benefits for children.

Pity that no one can come up with a way to limit the damage done by abusive men and help women see a better life than one on benefits.

@SerendipityJane

All the cap does is make life 10x worse for families who had more than 2 children because they could afford it right up until a parent dies or is permanently injured and unable to work, and they have to put up with the level of judgement shown here that they "should have thought about that before hey had so many kids".

And as for having to prove you were raped ...

Well, they indeed should have thought of it. It's not as though illness, disability, death, divorce, job loss, etc are rare occurrences. People who don't factor these possibilities into family planning, just expecting the rest of us to pick up the tab are truly reprehensible.

Im in favour of the cap sorry , i have 2 children really wanted three but I couldn't afford a third on our wages so had to not have one , so why should someone on benefits be able to keep in having them.
The only time i would agree to pay more is in short term if someone who has been working for years looses a job and has 3/4 children that they could afford , just to tide them over

Before you put the cap in place you need to make contraception and morning after contraception widely and freely available, and make sure abusive men can't stop women accessing it.

Contraception is widely available you can go to gp for both the morning after pill and pill etc for free

If people can't get to a gp freely or a family planning clinic where else providing it would they be able to get to if being stopped by an abusive partner etc

Wow, one of the most vicious attacks in living memory on working class women which along with benefit sanctions and the housing benefit cap has plunged countless women and their children into desperate poverty being cheered on a feminism forum. How revealing.

COVID comes into it because many women had trouble accessing contraception during lockdown. Abortion rates have gone up as a result, which is also predictable.

The cap is fair it wasn't imposed on existing children , what should be campaigned for is better support for non insurable illnesses etc so those that have had more than 2 children get help
I know if several large families where neither parent has worked for years

@jj1968 its not an attack on women , we have choices in lots of things in life , what about thinking if child you are bringing into the world if you really can't afford it
Why should the state pay
Many people have only one of two children as they can't afford it , others have more without handouts as they plan and sacrifice other things
Have you seen rate of benefit cap for families , its often more than someone working
The only thing that needs looking at os the housing part as its not reflective in many cases of prices in area - good reason to build more cheaper rent council / ha houses

@Circusoflove why gps were open throughout you can phone up and prescription sent ? Tesco sell condoms etc , chemists were open for morning after pill
Unless any of these were in short supply which I don't remember reading about ? Hrt was not sure about contraceptive pill

Most of the posters here dont understand coercive control, so it must seem baffling to you that there are women who aren't allowed to just make a phone call or go to their GP or a chemist without fear of repercussions.

@Thelnebriati so if they aren't allowed how would they access contraception elsewhere
And surely money would be better spent getting people out or not into these situations on the first place
If they keep having more children even if given more money of the man controls that , then they see none of it

This thread is truly awful. Everyone is up in arms about children living in poverty with not enough food to eat in the holidays. But when it comes to down to how we solve that, ie give poor families more money, there’s so much wailing about how unfair and wrong it all is.

There were actually problems accessing contraception, and MAP in particular, during 1st lockdown.

@jj1968 class does not dictate income, nor vice versa.

@jj1968

Wow, one of the most vicious attacks in living memory on working class women which along with benefit sanctions and the housing benefit cap has plunged countless women and their children into desperate poverty being cheered on a feminism forum. How revealing.

I agree. For a moment I thought I had stumbled into AIBU. People do realise that CTC is an in-work benefit as well, don't they?. Maybe I should have gone to university and got a degree....oh wait I did, still get TC's. Blame the government seeing that they set my pay level.

@Circusoflove Many posters on this thread have stated that they have had to cap the number of children they have due to income/finances. Hypothetically, how is it unfair to apply this universally? (Those in abusive relationships aside)

@justanotherneighinparadise

The ‘having unlimited children as a way to have a life-long income and avoid working’ was most definitely utilised fully by many families in the past. That just couldn’t continue. It’s sad that abortion is one of the alternatives to that but we are overpopulated and the responsibility lies with the individual to afford the child, not that state.

Statistically, it wasn't. We had discussions about it at the time.

A tiny amount of families were used to build a stereotype of the feckless poor. (Bloody channel 4) The average number of children for families that claimed a benefit was the same as other families that didn't.

@circusoflove many of those families will get benefits for all children as they were born before the cap especially if school age
Everyone knew the cap was happening so time to be prepared
Some large families were getting silly amounts in benefits
Im not even sure if fsm meals apply to only 2 children i guess as only been in 3 years none would be school age yet

@TheGreawave i to have claimed ct credit and at a time when you could claim for as many as needed
I still choose to stay at 2 kids and not have a third as it wasn't the states responsibility to pay for my decision and i knew a third would leave us really struggling
I was also in a 2 bed house and couldn't afford a 3 bed