Impact of 2-child benefit cap on abortion decisions

[niceberg]

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/dec/03/two-child-limit-on-benefits-a-key-factor-in-many-abortion-decisions-says-charity

This was inevitable and as such must have been seen as an acceptable outcome by the government when it was introduced.

@jj1968 why do you think benefits should pay for people to have a 4x4 or a long haul holiday .
Surely those are luxuries that rightly so going to work gets you
You also realise the top tax bracket people pay the most tax in this country
If you overtax people move with their money to countries that don't
Yes larger companies and some very rich should pay more tax or the likes of philip green be responsible for running companies properly when taking huge dividends but the average 40% tax payer won't be super rich

@timeforanewstart nobody said it wasn't. That doesn't mean that some people don't have 3 or more children and need help. Just that its not the norm or as common a problem as some people seem to believe

I am absolutely against child poverty. That’s why I think it’s a good thing that parents are being asked to think about whether they can afford more than 2 kids.

Abuse and coercive control are separate issues that need dealing with and properly funding and resourcing.

[quote timeforanewstart]@jj1968 I don't know many working people who drive a 4x4 though either
I know plenty of working people who actually can't afford to buy there child a playstation as well
Benefits were introduced as a stop gap not a way of life
And if you actually think some people didn't do well on old system then I would say you don't know many people
I know people who were worse off when they went to work all things considered.
I know people on benefits who have gone abroad as well on old style system.
Have you ever actually claimed benefits?
The ones who take more than they should then means there is less for the geniune disabled person who is really struggling or the single guy who is entitled to hardly anything
Some people were getting £30000 in benefits , 2 people working full time min wage don't bring home that much [/quote]
If they were getting that much in benefits than they either had loads of kids, which means per person they weren't actually getting that much, or they lived in a high rent area. A huge proportion of spending on benefits, including Universal Credit, Housing Benefits and Child Tax Credits goes towards people who are working. And if people in work are worse off than some people on benefits that is an argument for raising wages not cutting benefits.

The ones who take more than they should then means there is less for the geniune disabled person who is really struggling or the single guy who is entitled to hardly anything

No, the ones who dodge taxes, or don't want to pay enough to sustain the society that generated their wealth means there is less for the genuine disabled person or the single guy hardly getting anything.

@Thelnebriati

Before you put the cap in place you need to make contraception and morning after contraception widely and freely available, and make sure abusive men can't stop women accessing it.

They are.

@PodgeBod

*PinkPlantCase

I’m not sure how much covid comes into it. The cap doesn’t apply to children who were born before it came in, so only people who knew about the cap when they had their children will be impacted in the way you talk about.*

Children born before the cap are only covered if their parents have claimed benefits continually since before the cap. If you had 3 or 4 children before the cap and then lose your job, you are only paid for 2.

If you had 4 children before April 2017 then you'll be paid for 4 children if you lose your job today.

@jj1968 people are often worse off because you take in account someone on total benefits also gets free prescriptions , eye tests , dental care , etc doesn't have to pay transport to go to work
No one should get £30000 or 40000 in state benefits to not work , even if they have 6 children.
Where is the incentive to work if you can get work
Like I said have you ever claimed benefits or actually know someone who has , who has say 4 kids and know how much they got before any caps ?

You also realise the top tax bracket people pay the most tax in this country

Of course they do, they've got all the money.

If you overtax people move with their money to countries that don't

Are rich people leaving France and Sweden in droves then?

Actually, even though overpopulation is an issue worldwide, we are actually in this country having a birth rate below replacement level and have had for some time. we do need to take family planning seriously of course but, we also do not need a massive ageing population to have not enough young people following.

MiddlesexGirl You are correct. This really confused me but it seems the rules were changed in February 2019 to cover those children- I'm sure before then you had to be claiming without a gap of more then 6 months if my memory serves me right? I'm glad its become more fair

@timeforanewstart

Yes I've claimed benefits. I've also seen the horrifying damage that the pittance given on the benefits system causes, from people including kids suffering from malnutrition, singles mums at their wits end after being threatened with sanctionsand workfare, the poorest being socially cleansed from many cities, disabled people driven to near suicide by endless assessments and the horrifying conditions many children are growing up in after being forced into B&Bs and temporary accommodation due to the benefit cap and other cuts.

For anyone interested I'd really recommend Betsy Hartmann's book on population and how fears of overpopulation have been used to attack women mostly in the global south. There's a decent review here: isreview.org/issue/108/convenient-smokescreen-overpopulation

@jj1968 your bringing something else into it about people dodging taxes which isn't what thread is about
Just because one happens doesn't mean we shouldn't tackle other issues as well
Not everyone that drives a 4x4 or goes on long haul holiday is a tax dodger Im sure the vast majority have paid plenty of tax
Same as the vast majority who claim benefits don't do it to screw the system
But under the old system there were some people who seemed to get a lot , whilst others scrapped by
Re: wages yes could be increased and they have with min wage but with than the cost of living just goes up
Universal credits flaw is that it doesn't take into account hb element as fairly so someone living in a high rent area may get a similar amount to someone else in. Lower rent therefore disposable income can be vastly different , this area should be improved and allocated a bit fairer

@jj1968 what is the benefit cap

@jj1968 Do tell me how the rich are incentivised to have children, as you claim. They receive no child benefit, pay for education, healthcare, etc. I'm not seeing where the incentives are.

This thread has been a good reminder of why I stay on FWR most of the time, rather than venture onto the other boards.

There are plenty of ways to encourage people/couples to have only two children, via carrot, rather than stick, methods.

Using the stick means punishing poor women, and trapping children in poverty. Ots always women who have to suffer the consequences, never the men who cause the pregnancies.

Statistically, it wasn't. We had discussions about it at the time.

A tiny amount of families were used to build a stereotype of the feckless poor. (Bloody channel 4) The average number of children for families that claimed a benefit was the same as other families that didn't.

If that was the case then surely the benefit cap wouldn’t have had that great an impact then

@PearPickingPorky ok and what would these be

[quote nemeton]@jj1968 Do tell me how the rich are incentivised to have children, as you claim. They receive no child benefit, pay for education, healthcare, etc. I'm not seeing where the incentives are.[/quote]
They receive a society that is carefully calibrated to keep them as rich as possible.

@PearPickingPorky it is the women who get left to pick up
Pieces mostly but I don't think the men cause the pregnancies on their own
Its why single mums who have decent exes who pay for there children are better of than the ones whos exes don't as these days cm isn't taken into account.
I would like to see a better system
For making these dads pay as well

@jj1968 that is a rubbish answer to why you think rich are incentivised
That applies to a very small amount a dr who has trained for years earning £10000 say deserves that long haul holiday and hasn't gained it at someone elses expense

[quote timeforanewstart]@jj1968 that is a rubbish answer to why you think rich are incentivised
That applies to a very small amount a dr who has trained for years earning £10000 say deserves that long haul holiday and hasn't gained it at someone elses expense[/quote]
I think you missed off a zero there. And why does the doctor deserve that holiday more than a nurse, or a hospital porter or a carer?

Anyway we are not all going to agree i think cap on children is right
I think we should be looking more closely at why some people end up on benefits and how they can be helped and more help for disabled people who can never work through no fault of their own.
More social housing or cheaper rent as people would have more for food etc if rents were cheaper.

@jj1968 because the dr has studied for more years to get there and yes i did miss a zero
I have no desire to train or be a dr so therefore i can't complain I don't earn £100000 .
If you become a nurse you know the wage , we can't all earn the same for different jobs .
And my neighbour who is a nurse does drive a new 4 x 4 and goes on long haul holidays

I’m opposed to the benefits cap. You can argue about the deserving and undeserving poor all you like, but it’s never a child’s fault if their parents can’t afford them.

I think it’s really sad that anyone should abort a wanted pregnancy for financial reasons. Some women must find that very difficult to come to terms with.