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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Impact of 2-child benefit cap on abortion decisions

359 replies

niceberg · 03/12/2020 09:30

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/dec/03/two-child-limit-on-benefits-a-key-factor-in-many-abortion-decisions-says-charity

This was inevitable and as such must have been seen as an acceptable outcome by the government when it was introduced.

OP posts:
PinkPlantCase · 03/12/2020 22:28

@Ohalrightthen I completely agree with you, though the other side is that it isn’t fair for the state to allow the child to suffer if the mum has another child that she knows she can’t support. This is not the child’s fault.

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 03/12/2020 22:30

Still a lot of money...

Ohalrightthen · 03/12/2020 22:35

@jj1968 so because i want to make sure my children have a decent life, because i don't want to condemn my children to poverty, i get to have less of them than someone who is deliberately bringing children into a miserable situation?

The benefit cap hands responsibility back to the parents. "Accidental pregnancy" just doesnt fly as an excuse in a society where we have ample education on and access to contraception and abortion. Perhaps, now that people know they won't be getting handouts for additional kids, they'll pay a bit more attention to family planning.

Of course this policy will negatively impact some people. Unfortunately, even the most widely benefitial policy will have negative impacts for some. But it has the potential to decrease the number of children condemned to an endless cycle of hereditary poverty.

timeforanewstart · 03/12/2020 22:37

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer yes its a lot of money but it was a reply to someone who said rich were not capped
But £50000 take home after tax and maybe paying for nursery , travel to work might not leave as much disposable income as people think
Never earned that amount but I do remember on old tax credit system I was offered more hrs but by time i had paid tax and childcare And the tax credits taken off me I was actually worse off , that can never be right

nemeton · 03/12/2020 23:01

@jj1968 Am I rich? By most people's standards, yes. No child benefit, privately educated our children. We have no inherited wealth, we both work FT, we live very modestly, have one car, holiday every two or three years. I fail to see how society is "calibrated to keep us rich" as you term it.

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 03/12/2020 23:02

And the tax credits taken off me I was actually worse off , that can never be right

No absolutely not

nemeton · 03/12/2020 23:03

@timeforanewstart the child benefit limit is based on gross earnings, not after tax/ni deductions.

jj1968 · 03/12/2020 23:05

@Ohalrightthen

I;m just pointing out that its not correct that someone on benefits prior to the cap could afford to have three children and you couldn't. You could have left work and gone on benefits for a start. But you now seem to think being on benefits would condemn your children to poverty. Well perhaps it's not that generous then.

The people most affected by the benefit cap were lone parents in London, often with only one or two children, who were renting in the private sector. The introduction of the cap made them almost facing homelessness overnight. Some of them were working but couldn't work enough hours due to very young children to qualify for the exemption. Whilst many were propped up with discretionary housing payments from the council for a while most of them ended up first in temporrary hostels and B&Bs and then socially cleansed from the city and forced to move hundreds of miles away in some cases, into areas where they knew no-one.

Another large group affected by the cap were recently divorced/separated mothers and as many have already pointed out it is now hitting those who have lost jobs due to Covid. The cap has led to the horrifying rape clause, and has no doubt contributed to an increase of partner abuse and domestic violence. One of the rationales for the cap was that it would encourage families not to separate, by which, in Iain Duncan Smith's nasty little mind meant it would stop women leaving their husbands.

Of course the cap was never presented as an attack on these groups. It also hit the a very small number of large families which this forum's favourite newspapers attacked again and again in order to try and build support for cutting benefits. But these were only a small percentage of those hit by the cap. And whilst you might argue they deserved it a lot of these families were extremely marginalised, had problems with both mental and physical health, and had often lived traumatic lives and as a consequence made some mistakes. They have not been helped by being impoverished. All that does is ensure those problems are passed down to the next generation.

The cap was not introduced to save money, it cost far more to implement than it saved, It was done firstly to pacify the likes of the Tory faithful like the Daily Mail and The Spectator to show they were getting tough on claimants. Secondly it cleansed the poorest from central London and other cities like Edinburgh ensuring the new residents of the mutli million pound new built flats didn't have poor people living next door. And thirdly as I've said it was a hackneyed attempt to bring back 'family values' first touted by Iain Duncan Smith's Centre for Social Justice think tank.

There have been few more perfectly honed attacks to demolish the lives of many of the poorest women in the country who were collectively punished for the supposed sins of a very small number of large families portrayed, often dishonestly as feckless, when in reality they were often in areas of very high unemployment or had health problems or disabilities which prevented them working. Of all the things that happened in austerity it was one of the nastiest cuts of the lot, and the only one that was squarely aimed at working class women and their children who didn't have or want a man suppoting them. It was a direct attack on women's autonomy and one of the most misogynist economic policies we have seen in decades.

It also very nearly closed every women's refuge in the country, plunging the entire sector into insecurity for years until they finally accepted that refuge and hostel rents should be exempt from the cap.

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 03/12/2020 23:06

Excellent post jj

DidoLamenting · 03/12/2020 23:12

Secondly it cleansed the poorest from central London and other cities like Edinburgh ensuring the new residents of the mutli million pound new built flats didn't have poor people living next door

Have you ever been in Edinburgh? Because what you've said sounds nothing like the housing demographics of that city.

timeforanewstart · 03/12/2020 23:18

@DidoLamenting same
As in london you will see a council block next to a private block all the time
The only thing i agree with is the rent part of the cap should be reviewed and based on rent in area and paid direct to landlord or a better solution build more social / cheaper rent places , that saying if you have 6 kids , I don't think a 7 bedroom place should be rented.
But you can't have unlimited benefits with no cap at all , where is the incentive to work or change things otherwise

timeforanewstart · 03/12/2020 23:27

@jj1968 you really just suggested to someone they could of had a third child and gave up work and gone on benefits ? That in itself is morally wrong , benefits should not be a choice.
Benefits should cover food , rent , heat etc but no not foreign holidays etc as many people working cannot afford these either
Luxuries are just that
We live in a society where everyone thinks they should have the latest phone , newest car etc its not how people were years ago
People who work have to make sacrifices as well
At moment I am robbing peter to pay paul as I have lost my job and we are just over the amount to claim, we have cAr loan that we took out with 2 jobs , so I have had to try and pay that as dh has no job without a car , so we have to cut back and be careful , but I know we are lucky because at least one of has a job for now ,not sure how long dh will have so trying to also plan incase

timeforanewstart · 03/12/2020 23:28

@jj1968 can you post link to say how much it cost to implement cap and how much if has saved ?

PotholeParadies · 03/12/2020 23:29

I always find that those who are most judgemental of contraceptive mistakes are those who know least about how they work.

I can recite ranges of typical use versus perfect use, along with common reasons for failure for multiple methods, down to individual brands of oral contraceptive. The more I learned, for the sake of keeping myself safe, the more easily I understood how it happens. It's almost like humans are humans, not robots.

FatMumSlims · 03/12/2020 23:34

@mumsyandtiredzz

It effects working families as well though. When I had my first child years ago our household income was about 22k with DH working FT and me PT and we received tax credits.

I believe with 3 children the cap used to be 40k to receive tax credits.

There will be many families in full-time work who will have to choose between abortion and being pushed into poverty if faced with an unintended pregnancy.

And that’s the thing isn’t it. Working or not working an abortion whilst definitely being something all women should have access to - should not be anything that you’re forced into because of money. I was forced to have an abortion of an unplanned pregnancy when I was 21 - it was the single most traumatic thing that’s ever happened to me. (And for context, I’ve been present during terror attacks, and an armed siege, had 5 years of domestic abuse and nearly died in childbirth) an abortion I had to have despite not wanting to was miles more traumatic.
timeforanewstart · 03/12/2020 23:44

@PotholeParadies good for you but funny enough reading the packet told me how they worked too, it clearly stated if I missed one or was ill etc , to use another form
Yes mistakes happen but if having another child would really impact you then you have to be extra careful , or plan how you would manage as many do

DidoLamenting · 03/12/2020 23:57

*DidoLamentingsame
As in london you will see a council block next to a private block all the time

In Edinburgh? Where?

Ohwhatllipick · 04/12/2020 01:15

If you agree with the benefit cap, what about education, another taxpayer funded benefit? Should all parents have to pay for this for their third and subsequent children? Perhaps parents could take a student loan for that if they can’t pay the £4500 a year or so it costs.

PerveenMistry · 04/12/2020 01:38

@LastTrainEast

timeforanewstart Well notice that I was responding to the claim that it was good for the planet.

I do get the arguments, but benefits are worked out so that there is no spare money. To feed/clothe an extra child you must take it from the others. And as I go on to point out some people have the 3rd child with every expectation of being able to afford it and then disaster strikes.

It's a rule written without thinking it through and really it would be fairer to make a 2 child limit for everyone. But it would never pass if it applied to people who matter.

This is hogwash.

Factoring in potential "disaster " IS part of the planning precess.

PerveenMistry · 04/12/2020 01:41

@LastTrainEast

Of course with the pandemic some people with 3 or more children who were quite well off will now be unexpectedly poor. They will then be told that benefits will not be paid for the 3rd child and they presumably should stop feeding it.
No, but they might have to give up their phones, TV and other discretionary spending.
NiceGerbil · 04/12/2020 04:05

Yikes at this thread, still.

This is FWR, right?

And the consensus is that children should pay for the decisions of their parents.

Ok that's good that's fine.

I'm very surprised to see this on FWR.

When this policy was suggested it was about 50/50 on mn and no way on FWR.

Now FWR says yay.

I'm not quite sure what to make of this.

I see all the posts about they should have planned better what about insurance blah etc. Ok fine let's say that people have been reckless in not being expensively insured to the hilt and also not anticipating Corona etc etc.

Why do the children need to be punished for the actions of the parents though?

That's the bit I don't get.

These children are in existence. There's no going back from that. What does this cap actually do then?

It's a bit odd to me.

The rape exemption is just grim as well.

So many people red hot keen. What has changed? In just a few years.

UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme · 04/12/2020 06:45

There are a lot of deliberately obtuse posts on this thread.

Do posters seriously believe that the entire population has the capacity to risk assess for the next 18 years before making a decision? Are people posting so lacking in emotional intelligence and so willfully ignorant and blinkered that they choose to believe that everyone is intellectually and psychologically identical and capable of the same fairly complex in depth thought processes? That women who have grown up in chotic homes with parents living from week to werk, paycheck to pay check, are universally capable of planning for theoretical financial or health disasters which might happen in ten year's time?

Many posters on this thread are deliberately pretending to believe that everyone is of above average intelligence, whilse themselves displaying a massive disconnect which looks a lot like willful ignorance.

UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme · 04/12/2020 06:50

Most importantly a comparison of the birth rate in countries with diametrically opposing child benefit policies shows that the UK policy IS punitive and does not work as a disincentive.

Child poverty and the birthrate are both significantly higher in the UK than Germany, even though Germany has universal child benefit for unlimited number of children, and the benefit is significantly more generous than in the UK.

All the UK caps do is put children into poverty. They don't stop people having babies.

PearPickingPorky · 04/12/2020 07:13

[quote PinkPlantCase]@Ohalrightthen I completely agree with you, though the other side is that it isn’t fair for the state to allow the child to suffer if the mum has another child that she knows she can’t support. This is not the child’s fault.[/quote]
"the mum"

Mums have children they can't support.

Immaculate conception, innit.

PearPickingPorky · 04/12/2020 07:21

@NiceGerbil

Yikes at this thread, still.

This is FWR, right?

And the consensus is that children should pay for the decisions of their parents.

Ok that's good that's fine.

I'm very surprised to see this on FWR.

When this policy was suggested it was about 50/50 on mn and no way on FWR.

Now FWR says yay.

I'm not quite sure what to make of this.

I see all the posts about they should have planned better what about insurance blah etc. Ok fine let's say that people have been reckless in not being expensively insured to the hilt and also not anticipating Corona etc etc.

Why do the children need to be punished for the actions of the parents though?

That's the bit I don't get.

These children are in existence. There's no going back from that. What does this cap actually do then?

It's a bit odd to me.

The rape exemption is just grim as well.

So many people red hot keen. What has changed? In just a few years.

These. Are. Not Feminist. Posters.

Just because the wider users of MN have spotted a benefits thread and jumped right in to complain about careless, lazy women conceiving children by themselves that they can't guarantee they can financially support for life by themselves doesn't mean that this is what "FWR say".

There is pretty much zero feminist analysis is any of these posts. This thread is just full of Jo Public, not people who have any understanding of feminism. Most people posting won't even have noticed it's in FWR because they've just seen a 'benefits' thread in Active and dived right in.

Swipe left for the next trending thread