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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Keira

999 replies

YouNoob · 01/12/2020 10:25

Live tweets from Belstaffie here:

mobile.twitter.com/Belstaffie/status/1333716720176033793

OP posts:
Thread gallery
33
nauticant · 01/12/2020 23:47

As a contrast, here's a tweet on the side of Green:

twitter.com/EastRi3/status/1333918755651530753

RedToothBrush · 01/12/2020 23:47

Susie Green blathering on about no other medical condition requires a court approval.

Here's what the High Court had to say on that point:

^The condition being treated, GD, has no direct physical manifestation. In contrast, the treatment provided for that condition has direct physical consequences, as the medication is intended to and does prevent the physical changes that would otherwise occur within the body, in particular by stopping the biological and physical development that would otherwise take place at that age. There is also an issue as to whether GD is properly categorised as a psychological condition, as the DSM-5 appears to do, although we recognise there are those who would not wish to see the condition
categorised in that way. Be that as it may, in our judgment for the reasons already identified, the clinical intervention we are concerned with here is different in kind to other treatments or clinical interventions. In other cases, medical treatment is used to remedy, or alleviate the symptoms of, a diagnosed physical or mental condition, and the effects of that treatment are direct and usually apparent. The position in relation to puberty blockers would not seem to reflect that description.^

In other words its unique in not manifesting as a physical problem but seemingly a mental one, but is being treated by doing something physical to a healthy body. This goes directly again the principle of 'do not harm' thus is problematic and does require additional scrutiny.

Imagine if we tried to treat schizophrenia in a patient who was convinced their hand was on fire by chopping off a healthy fully functioning normal hand.

Thats the equivalence and why its problematic.

Add to that the potential influence of homophobia and/or sexual abuse into this dynamic and you have a cocktail of issues which need significant levels of safeguarding in a way other conditions don't merit.

Susie Green's problem is, and always will be, the more this is pointed out and identified the more it also opens her personally to scruntiny and raises questions about how she took her child abroad for experimental treatment.

All she can do is fall back on anecdata. And unfortunately in the absence of evidence due to there being no proper scrutiny of what happens to children subjected to puberty blockers on a long term basis that means this anecdata holds far more weight than it should do.

As more evidence does become available, I think there will be an inevitability about what it shows which isn't very favorable to Susie and many of the parents supplying this bias anecdata which is there to protect their interests primarily and not the interests of their children.

The more this unravels the more exposed and desparate Green will become, because that narrative would leave Green in a position which suggests she personally is responsible for psychological and physical harm to a minor.

This is precisely why Mermaids are opposed to proper research in this area. And you have to ask big questions about why any individual or organisation is just so opposed to evidence based medicine which, ironically, is the gold standard in every other area of healthcare.

Why is it that they seek to be 'treated as any other condition without the need for court intervention' whilst simulataneously wishing to be treated differently from all other areas of health care in terms of medical ethics and evidence based medicine.

The cognitive dissonance should be pointed on and laid bare. They do not want gender dysphoria to be the subject of standards and regulation applicable elsewhere when it doesn't suit their agenda.

OvaHere · 01/12/2020 23:48

@MoonPomme

If there is all this worldwide evidence why didn't the tavi produce it in court?
That's what I was wondering (along with thousands of others I imagine).
Melroses · 01/12/2020 23:48

@hoteltango

Numbers and statistics can be problematic for most people (me) to understand, so I used my trusty calculator to try to understand paragraph 58:

1648 patients were discharged in one particular year period.
312 were sampled - that's a fifth of the total
of those, 16% accessed endocrinology

but 16% of the total 1648 = 264 patients who possibly accessed endocrinology

55% of the 312 sample went on to cross-sex hormones
but 55% of the 264 = 145

and 145 / 1648 = 8.7%
which presumably means my calculations are correct?

But percentages are difficult to imagine, so I looked again at the actual numbers.

1648 patients in one year who were discharged. The two nearest senior schools (11-16) each have around that number of pupils on roll.

145 who accessed cross-sex hormones. That's the equivalent of four (?) secondary school classes.

I know there's a danger with playing about with numbers and percentages, especially as GIDS was presumably at that time the only service in England & Wales, so the raw numbers would be spread over a large geographical area. But I found when I started to try to relate the raw numbers to something my mind could grasp, it's just extraordinary/heartbreaking to think that the equivalent of the 1648 total patients is the whole of the secondary school just round the corner from me.

Does that take into account the children who are handed over to adult services at 18?
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 01/12/2020 23:49

Newsnight clips.

Susie Green:
twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1333919459262816261?s=09

Keira Bell:
twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1333918445289791488?s=09

DeaconBoo · 01/12/2020 23:50

Can I just say Newsnight is confusing talking about childrens' transition and Britain's transition (to Brexit) in the same show...

YouNoob · 01/12/2020 23:51

Thanks, Nauticant.

OP posts:
Whatwouldscullydo · 01/12/2020 23:52

If there is all this worldwide evidence why didn't the tavi produce it in court?

You cant base a case on 12 yr olds having sex and some potentially being asexual then blame keira when you lose... have they actually heard themselves? Is she meant to apologise for putting her evidence together as requested ? I mean come on, look at theiresources at their disposal vs us lot with a crowdfunder.. if you cant get it together that's no ones fault but your own.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 01/12/2020 23:53

SG should never have agreed to go on - I don't know what on earth she was thinking. Surely a carefully prepared statement would have been better for her / Mermaids?

HecatesCats · 01/12/2020 23:54

If there is all this worldwide evidence why didn't the tavi produce it in court?

Tumbleweed

HecatesCats · 01/12/2020 23:56

SG should never have agreed to go on - I don't know what on earth she was thinking. Surely a carefully prepared statement would have been better for her / Mermaids?

Well it does seem to have been a massive vanity project, rather than, you know, centring children and their best interests, so who could have persuaded SG that now is not the time?

RedToothBrush · 01/12/2020 23:57

I am still upset at the insinuation in this interview and earlier on R4 that Keira bears ANY responsibility for teens now wanting PBs. I find that quite immoral questioning. I am surprised and unimpressed at EM for that. Apart from that good job.

As I said upthread, Kiera's treatment has shades of how Anton Ferdinard was treated as the party who was guilty rather than as a victim. This had a profound impact on his mental well being, his career and for his family.

The whole line of questioning he recieved was about trying to pin blame on him rather than recognising him as an innocent party.

He recieved death threats including a bullet in the post, leading to full body searches at the next match.

The tone of the press played a significant role in all of this.

I would encourage people to watch the documentary even if you have no interest whatsoever in football. The film is interesting on the level about how minority groups who are innocent parties are villified and often face a bigger backlash and impact on their lives than those who they are targetted by.

I do hope Kiera is ok and maybe saw the documentary last night because I do think the parallels are important to be aware of.

YouNoob · 01/12/2020 23:58

[quote nauticant]As a contrast, here's a tweet on the side of Green:

twitter.com/EastRi3/status/1333918755651530753[/quote]

Very articulate.

OP posts:
ChloeCrocodile · 02/12/2020 00:00

SG should never have agreed to go on - I don't know what on earth she was thinking.

She is locked in to a terrible situation. If she accepts the ruling, she accepts that she has done harm to her own child. So she has to contest it, in the strongest terms, from every platform available to her. Releasing a press statement is for calm, measured people with no skin in the game.

I do feel for her. Acknowledging that she facilitated experimental, detrimental treatment on her child must be a very frightening thing to do. But the harm she does others in persisting with her delusion “I had to do it to keep my child alive” is worse.

RedToothBrush · 02/12/2020 00:00

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

SG should never have agreed to go on - I don't know what on earth she was thinking. Surely a carefully prepared statement would have been better for her / Mermaids?
Susie Green has no choice but to double down.

The ruling is personal. It marks her as a parent who acted in a way which today would be framed as illegal without a court order.

Susie Green is the gender identity version of Donald Trump desparate to avoid sexual harassment, tax evasion and corruption charges. She will behave in exactly the same manner as reality pings back and she is no longer in charge of the distortion of the truth.

BlackWaveComing · 02/12/2020 00:02

Goodness, Keira is so brave. Watched her Newsnight clip. What an incredibly intelligent and poised woman, considering all that she's gone through.

MoonPomme · 02/12/2020 00:02

ItsAllGoingToBeFine
Shes flailing. The deperation is palpable.
I'd feel sorry for susie green if..actually scrap that.
All is not going to be fine for mermaids.

Redsquareoctopus · 02/12/2020 00:05

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

HecatesCats · 02/12/2020 00:05

SG didn't have to stand up in front of a (global) audience and talk about her child's transition (in graphic detail) Chloe, she chose to. She also chose to build a charity, supporting others to do the same, around her decision.

yourhairiswinterfire · 02/12/2020 00:05

They're all reading from the same script, aren't they?

SG: If my child hadn't had this treatment, they might not be here today.

Mother of trans boy on ITVNews: If my child hadn't taken puberty blockers, they might not be here today.

So obvious what's going on here.

happydaytoday · 02/12/2020 00:06

What amazing news today! Sorry, I've been off the page for a while for self preservation. Someone earlier said Mermaids are no longer saying ' born in the wrong body?!'

stumbledin · 02/12/2020 00:07

I haven't had time to keep up with this thread - but have read that last few pages.

It looks like Keira has been doing interviews all day. Have no idea how she had kept so calm and level headed. Really impressive.

But was very concerned that earlier in the evening, on a local news programme and on C4 news they interviewed Keira and then gave 2 people who oppose the court ruling. I think many in the news media aren't going to let go of them having been so active in spreading the trans agenda.

And it is odd how newsnight in the midst of the BBC pro trans reporting has been allowed to do a number of reports. But maybe that is because they focused on the medical standards. I think it is Deborah Cohen who did all the investigating.

I am sure that there was never any question of Keira going head to nead with SG. And as before she was good. I think Emily Maitlis really wanted her to say more, but she just kept it to the facts of the case.

And SG apart from the emotional threat that young people will commit suicide (and it was BBC fact checker some months ago who came up with the real stats on that) really seemed to think that the big clincher for her arguement was what other treatment for children would be put through the extra precaution of legal permission.

But the failure of this arguement is there any other treatment, whether for a child or an adult, that results in such a fundamental non reversible physical outcome with life long consequences, based on something the patient perceives not on a professional diagnosis of an actual medical condition.

Tierful · 02/12/2020 00:08

Is there a word for Trump style lie & deny? It’s becoming so common place, we really need excellent journalists to pull apart every misleading statement. Sadly I don’t think the news formats as they are allow for this.

BlackWaveComing · 02/12/2020 00:09

Fake news.

testing987654321 · 02/12/2020 00:10

I think I know what Chloe means. The truth is too awful for SG to bear.

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