International day for the elimination of violence against women

[Kit19]

refreshingly for the UN they seem to be talking about women and girls....

This from the letter is just horseshit and refusing to accept that they are who they say they are.

Yes, it is. And you wouldn't apply it to any other situation, would you?

"I identify as French - where's my French passport?"

"I identify as 16 - can I have half price on the buses, please?"

"I identify as 68 - where's my old age pension?"

"I identify as black - where's my student scholarship reserved for black people?"

"I identify as disabled - can I have a blue badge?"

It genuinely mystifies me that so many people can't see the very elementary logical flaw in accepting that people are who they say they are.

"honestly just don't get it. What are the likes of Rayner and Whittome actually getting out of making themselves look so bad, making it look like they literally just don't give a fuck about women? Why?! It's bizarre."
Head pats from the penis people?
Not being threatened with violent death and rape might be nice too.
Not excusing them at all.
Every stupid coward that signed that letter should be ashamed.

Head pats from the penis people?

Yes. Another thread today talks about the campaign opposing women's suffrage, led by prominent women such as Mrs Humphrey Ward. (See also Phyllis Schlafly and her role opposing women's liberation in the US in the 1970s.) Plus ca change. There are large numbers of women who spend their lives courting male approval. They probably imagine it protects them from male violence or abuse, and differentiates them from the meanies campaigning for women's rights, whether that's the right to vote or the right to have single-sex spaces.

I will never understand people who plop post on here scolding us for caring about women, and not centreing other groups. Then claim that 'their feminism' is different..well sorry, if your feminism does NOT centre female people, its no form of feminism I recognise tbh. Equality for all would be humanitarianism (right word, looks wrong ) but the specific 'feminism' many of the ploppers seem to follow, appears to be mens rights activism, more than anything else tbh. Scolding feminists for not focussing on male people, its just beyond parody really.

This from the letter is just horseshit and refusing to accept that they are who they say they are.

Well said RoyalCorgie

The other way to immediately show the holes in this statement is to say unto someone telling you this:

Ok, I'm not a t**f

I'm not c*s

I am an adult human female who perceives sex as binary

I am a lesbian, by which I mean I am a female homosexual

And you'll very quickly have explained to you that the right to define oneself and be believed with unconditional respect is meant only for some. Not for you. This is something you must give, but must not ever expect in return. You will be who you are told to be for the convenience of others. And you may not protest this.

Problem is: I'm not a masochist. Or a doormat. So no. I don't engage in any values or social contracts to benefit at others at my own cost because why would I?

Then claim that 'their feminism' is different..

Really no problem with their feminism being 'different'. I've got no problem with anyone practicing what they like to term as a 'different' veganism by being inclusive of meat and all animal products, or a 'different' Conservatism by supporting Labour, or a 'different' form of homosexuality by being inclusive of heterosexual sex. Crack on, do whatever you like, I might not agree with your definition but if you leave me alone I will leave you alone. Live and let live.

It's when people come evangelising like missionaries intent on scolding the heathens that I may be forced to the discourtesy of pointing out some very obvious flaws in what they say.

the right to define oneself and be believed with unconditional respect is meant only for some. Not for you. This is something you must give, but must not ever expect in return. You will be who you are told to be for the convenience of others. And you may not protest this.

Yep. It's utter bollocks.

I have to say my local council fb have been doing stirling work around raising awareness of this this week.

Sadly many men doing the whataboutery in comments.

And all women and girls.

Hmm yeah I guess theres not really a problem with describing mens rights activism as feminism. It only becomes an issue when said MRAs come here to tell off feminists for not focusing on what the MRAs think you should be focusing on.

the right to define oneself and be believed with unconditional respect is meant only for some. Not for you. This is something you must give, but must not ever expect in return.

Spot on Michelle

Yes, it is. And you wouldn't apply it to any other situation, would you?

"I identify as French - where's my French passport?"

I know quite a lot of people who were born in the UK to Irish parents who very much identify as Irish and would describe themselves as 'Irish' before describing themselves as 'British'. Most of them have Irish passports. What they cannot do though, is get their birth certificate changed so that it says they were born in Ireland. Because they weren't born in Ireland. As much as they might wish they had been born in Ireland, they weren't! To have 'Cork' on their birth certificate as their place of birth would be a lie, a falsehood, no matter how they identify.

And yet....

At the very least Liv should be embarrassed for co-signing anything with Jameela Jamil. Almost as cringey as the content itself.

I would really like to hear that group of signatories stand and defend that they are endorsing a political agenda that:

• believes in excluding from any public provisions including refuges and healthcare any females who cannot access mixed sex provision, in order to enable males to have full choice of all the provisions available: most of these females being vulnerable and disadvantaged females from marginalised groups.

• believes that it is more important that language makes less than 1% of the population feel included and safe than the female half of the UK population are easily able to find and understand essential medical provision made for females, where females most affected are vulnerable females from marginalised groups

• is currently and actively requesting political representation (basic civil rights) be stripped from women, and attempting to frustrate female people having recourse to the law to prevent questionable assaults on their legal rights

• has repeatedly involved actions to harass, threaten and have resorted to threats and actual violence in attempts to prevent women meeting peacefully to discuss current law in the name of this political lobby

• has over a period of years now involved widespread, daily extreme violent ideation including rape and death threats towards women, including themed clothing, art, actual direct personalised threats to individual women, and trivialising and normalising of violence towards women

If you don't speak out against it, you are part of it. These things are not necessary parts of care, respect and equality for trans people. These things are not acceptable regardless of what excuse anyone may feel they have. Either separate yourself from these parts and name them as wrong, (and yes, take the consequences because you'll quickly see the uncomfortable side of this lobby coming straight for you) or own that you believe in excluding, threatening and oppressing women.

@Moondust001

I rarely, as a feminist, post anything on these boards here because there seems to be only one definition of feminism accepted. And it isn't one that I recognise, where womens rights represents so much bigotry and hatred. But it did make me fall over laughing that so many people are criticising everyone else for noticing / not noticing this day, when most people here including the OP have only just noticed something that has been celebrated across the world for over 20 years! The UN didn't "just notice" women - you all just noticed that you are not the only people in the world to have views and opinions about womens rights, nor that yours are the only true and correct way to think.

The Mirabel sisters - Las Mariposas - died for a better world, and I think they'd be pretty disgusted by the use of "their remembrance" being used to justify bigotry and hatred of anyone. And if you don't know what they have to do with anything, you need to brush up on your feminism, because it didn't start, and it won't finish, with the narrow minded views of come-by-latelys commonly expressed on this board.

I'm one of those come-by-latelys that you refer to as narrow minded. Quite ironic given your sneering, condescending attitude towards anyone who hasn't recieved their certificate for a lifetime dedication to feminism. As a newish poster I still feel nervous every time I post but haven't felt unwelcome or belittled until your post so if that was your intention then well done.

Like many others I was unaware of so much until this year when I read about hundreds of rape and death threats aimed at an author who I held in high regard. Thinking she must have said some truly awful things I read her essay and I've been reading, researching and questioning ever since. I've read from a wide range of views and sources yet I can't escape the growing awareness of just how much women's views and voices are being silenced.

Instead of rambling on about the feminism journey I am on, I'd like to ask you oh wise feminist Oracle that you are - exactly how did the open letter printed yesterday improve the outcomes for women and girls? What contribution did it make to reducing sex-based violence?

Presumably this tweet is referring to the aforementioned letter and the Guardian's refusal to print it. No such qualms for the Independent.

Even given the Guardian's track record, if JM is referring to that letter I'm not surprised because it's so factually incorrect it should never have been published anywhere.

"privileged"

Gosh.

Is he saying that women who suffer sex based violence are privileged? And....what.... therefore deserving of it? Because some other groups (if you listen to bs made up statistics) have it worse?

I really hope I've misunderstood that tweet.

How does not printing a letter, equate to advancing an agenda?

This is a lawyer, I think, saying this?

That if a newspaper doesn't print something, anything? That has been written somewhere in support of something. That not printing it, any of them, is the same as advancing the other view?

Seriously?

I think part of the issue is that we are, as a society, desensitised to information due to huge overload, and reading statistics about hundreds of women murdered has less impact than knowing that just one person who you see in real life was murdered, even if it was 'that woman down the road you see at the shop sometimes'.

To people who prioritise feminism, 241 women murdered last year is a horrifying figure, but the average member of the public likely just sees it as another statistic. 241 women murdered, 484 men murdered, 1870 road death, 4303 male suicides, etc, etc.

I think as well that there's an acceptance to an extent that it's just normal. I suppose because it is?

Not to say that any single person would say it's ok but there's a sort of cultural blind spot, everywhere.

It's easier not to think too hard on it.

And women being abused generally is a backdrop/ plot advancement in a lot of the media we consume in the UK (our stuff and USA stuff).

And it goes back and back. Like all the stuff about Henry 8th. Is pretty dismissive of what he did. Don't know why that came to mind.

The justice system keeps coming into question when it comes to abuse of women/ girls. Children in general. There's not much horror and outrage over that sports coach who abused loads of boys for example, even though some really brave men told their incredibly affecting stories on mainstream TV.

And in all of this. And I'm no NAMALT. But men kill men like nobodies business.

So it comes back to male violence. As it always does.

Is the appeal of the focus on trans women being murdered is that actually they aren't in the UK so no one actually has to do anything tangible?

People still get kicked in for being visibly homosexual eg those women on the bus. Women get murdered and the men get light sentences on the basis that it was all sexy and an accident. Child sexual abuse on a large scale in the papers all the time.

What I don't get. Or at least I do but it's telling. Is why there isn't much talk about all that stuff? This topic is embedded hugely in both LGB and women's stuff. Where's the, I dunno. Reciprocation? All I see is a push to centre trans people in anything to do with LGB/ women. And no activism the other way around. But people are up for it. A lot.

Women who I assume are not horrible people decide to sign a letter to be released on the far for VAWG to make a point? Why that day? Trans remembrance Day was v recent. We have had a load of women killed in the UK this year, with DV etc increasing during lockdown.

I mean if you want to do a letter fine ok.

But to do it on that day is just. Why?

Easier than thinking what to do about all the murders in this country?

Sorry probably not v coherent.

With age I have become convinced that violence is almost integral to the male experience, even if in a subliminal way - apologies if I don't explain this well as I've had a few drinks. I know it annoys people when posters start a post with "as a man", but given that my name is ambiguous I should probably clarify that I am one.

I was brought up to be very pacifist and 'turn the other cheek' etc to use a Christian expression, but it did me no good in the real world. I've always been a large individual (tallish and very stocky) and at first other boys would always seemingly respect me. However, when they realised I was a big teddy bear they bullied me horribly and the other lads seemed to love showing off by roughing up a guy twice their size.

My father was no good in helping me with this problem and neither were any schools I ever attended. Even if the teachers spoke to the culprits I was still seen as 'a pussy' and neither my male or female peers respected me. What solved the problem was my cousin dragging me to his boxing class at the age of 13. I was utterly terrified and nothing like the other lads who seemed to enjoy being allowed to have a scrap in a relatively socially acceptable manner. I could see the 'killer instinct' most of them seemed to have, which I lacked completely. What kept me going week after week was the fact that it felt like a victory just to step into the ring despite being utterly petrified. It was a similar situation to how I felt doing work presentations later in life, where I realised that how I felt inside didn't matter as long as I outwardly performed.

I eventually reached the stage where I wasn't afraid of being hit and this changed everything. I started looking at my bullies at school and realising that they were all talk and would not fare well in the ring. I also realised that I had little to be afraid of as most of them would not want to ultimately fight me for three rounds and were looking for an easy target.

I had one bully that always picked on me at the bus stop, and one day I eventually took out my gumshield from my bag and put it in and said "ok then, if you want to box let's do it". He immediately looked hesitant as he wasn't used to this but then tried to dominate me by becoming extremely aggressive. I hit him with a few hard hooks to the body and he folded like a deck chair. I won't lie, it was one of the most satisfying moments of my life and I can see how men with less conscience thrive off of dominating others. But I've been on the other end too many times to ever be a bully.

But ultimately violence is the ultimate 'trump card' in many ways. Without the risk of imprisonment we would live in a very brutal culture as of millennia past, where the best fighters rule. A witty comeback is not much of a counter to a hard punch. But in our current society, violence had been replaced by 'power' it seems to me. The power to fire somebody, the power to have enough money to do/say what you want etc. At school most lads respect the 'hard lads' but this dynamic changes when the smarter individuals are the ones 'in charge'.

Underneath it all, the most powerful countries in the world continue so due to their military ability and financial influence. I think many men are sexist because ultimately they don't feel 'threatened' enough by women. In the same way, many also resent having to submit to men who are their superiors at work but who they see as wimps. If a man is physically imposing most men either respect him or at least fear him in some capacity. I think this is deeply ingrained in male humans at a primal level and underpins many male interactions. I think testosterone is also a big factor but that is another huge topic.

Thank you for sharing that.

DH and I had a (another) conversation about this earlier about 'alpha' males and all that stuff.

He's a big bloke and always got the little blokes fronting up to him in pubs etc.

We have a few things which are tricky in that he feels life hasn't treated him fairly etc. And then I say feminism blah. I see how people automatically get out of his way on the pavement etc. He doesn't notice. That's normal.

We can never understand each others experiences in the end. He can't see or imagine being 5'2 and female. He sees and feels the things that pissed him off which is fine of course.

In the end. Men seem to have this dominance hierarchy thing going on. With other men. Lots don't care about that but they are forced to join in.

Women aren't even on that scale.

It's just totally different.

Anyway I'm wasted too it's well late. Hope that made sense!

He's a total soppy bloke as well obv.

I find it interesting that over the years on this board, a lot of the regs who are in relationships with men are with physically v big men.

I think/ wonder if the masculinity is a given by their size and that frees them up a bit with gender role.

If a heavyweight boxer says I like to knit in my spare time. People say. Oh that's interesting. A bit of gentle ribbing maybe. No bloke dares go further. IYSWIM.

Must go to bed !