Ooo, Jo Maugham isn't happy...

[Xanthangum]

Jo Maugham (@JolyonMaugham) Tweeted:
"We waited some weeks for the BBC to be ready to cover our legal action to protect the legal rights of trans children. And the piece is up and is quite extraordinary. I'm not going to link to it because it is inaccurate and gives space to a transphobic hate group." twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1330758709140729856?s=20

Which I assume refers to this piece:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55015959

And he says this about LGB Alliance, which feels stupidly for a lawyer libellous: The third point is they have quoted the so-called LGB Alliance - a dark money funded astro-turfed hate group - on the healthcare of trans teenagers. What next? Will the BBC be quoting white supremacists on whether sickle cell anaemia should be treated on the NHS?

a dark money funded astro-turfed hate group

Where has JM got this idea from?

The latter description of LGB Alliance as a 'hate group' does seem libellous to me. Not being a lawyer. Presumably sensible, qualified lawyers would only say this type of thing with substantial reliable evidence to back up these assertions?

I do admire the LGB Alliance. It must be very hard to stand all this constant attack and vilification just for setting up a group for lesbians, gay men and bisexual people. Madness that it's come to this.

He's currently recruiting for a personal assistant if any members of his fan club here want to apply goodlawproject.org/news/assistant-jolyon-maugham-qc/

@PurpleHoodie

Kipo

Re: His choice of apparel. I think we all here know what he is about. From many an angle.

I don’t ?

ArcheryAnnie
I mean, one quote is "nobody else is sticking up for trans young people", which ignores, er, the vast, vast range of huge well-funded charities, the corporate capture of many corporations, and indeed the legal firm representing them, all fully signed-up to transing children as easily and as young as possible. It's hardly a quote to make anyone feel confident that this child is fully informed.

I agree, that particular quote struck me as being woefully ill-informed. Whether due to lack of knowledge, or else through the child being fed misinformation. Either way, I think it says a lot.

Maugham just loves wheeling out those debunked suicide rates, doesn't he? I'm another one waiting to find out why he's so keen to use a young female's case to argue for a treatment which only seems to benefit males.

Pre-covid, in my area children have to wait for over two years for their initial appointment on the way to getting assessed for autism. NHS waiting times were poor then, and they're worse now.

Please be careful discussing JM personal concerns about this - threads tend to get deleted if they stray into that territory.

Particularly liked the BBC article saying, ‘the NHS needs to make a cultural decision that trans people are real and deserve the same rights to treatment as everyone else.’

So that would be evidenced based treatment then. Not based on interested bodies promoting particular pathways. No one has the right to pick which treatments they have - it is based on medical assessments. I do think child mental health services need more long term investment though.

Agree with all the other posters on the timing is shocking when you consider the impact COVID has had on cancer treatments. My mum had just started her treatment in February and I’m so glad she did. I can’t imagine how difficult it is for families who are waiting for referrals for this and other treatments.

My DD is 19 and only now bring assessed for ASD after I raised concerns 15 years ago.

Why aren’t the parents advocating caution for their child?

if someone told me that my child had a condition that would require strong medication to be taken for life and major surgery (potentially multiple surgeries with terrible success rates) I would be ever so slightly worried for them and be ripping across the whole internet and every specialist I could get hold of and finding the best possible solution that would ideally avoid the most drastic treatment. But that's just me (and most other people on here obvs).

You should have seen me with my son's eczema - the doctors prescribed steriods but when they explained the side effects I thought that sounded terrible, so I researched extensively and found an alternative method that sorted it completely and he's still clear many years later. A friend of mine had been on steroids for eczema for years including as an adult and got to the point where she felt the need to stop taking them and it was horrendous - she had red raw skin for months.

@PurpleHoodie

Eresh

No. He won't have any evidence against LGBAlliance. Absolutely none.

Bit strange for someone apparently practicing Law.

At the very least, JM needs to be reported to the Bar Council. His ranting against balanced reporting by the BBC, and encouragement, through his unbalanced tweets, of threats against LGB people running the Alliance, is unprofessional conduct, and should be investigated for bringing his profession into disrepute.

Why aren’t the parents advocating caution for their child?

Because then they don't get to pat themselves on the back for being oh so accepting and woke.

use a young female's case to argue for a treatment which only seems to benefit males

It also "benefits" females - puberty blockers mean they won't require a double mastectomy.

@nauticant

I can't see how a judge could rule on this without it setting a general principal that waits for pretty much any treatment is unlawful

I see one possible result as forcing the NHS to have to go into the court and discuss the desirability and the outcomes of the treatments requested. Particularly to have to discuss that the outcomes are actually largely unknown because it involves untested experimentation on children.

Yes, this seems potentially counterproductive since the Keira Bell review (whatever its end result) showed there is no good evidence base for the use of blockers.

Also I remember from that case there was research done but the Tavistock had very poor excuses for why it hadn't been released yet. Those excuses are going to look even worse by the time this gets to court.

Yy re Autism, speech therapy, hip replacement, eye surgery when significant loss of vision is involved, management of near end stage cancer and the right drugs being available..... all friends and family at the moment, some of them have been on waiting lists for years. It's no different to and nothing worse than anyone else is dealing with on the NHS.

Pre-covid, in my area children have to wait for over two years for their initial appointment on the way to getting assessed for autism. NHS waiting times were poor then, and they're worse now.

It took 10 years for my DS to get an autism diagnosis. Much of that was trying to get him put on a waiting list for assessment because it's difficult to get professionals to take it seriously. Then roughly 3 years on the waiting list.

Whilst I can appreciate the frustration of anyone on a waiting list for any kind of treatment I get really pissed off at the insinuation this only happens for people with gender issues and therefore = deliberate discrimination. It's even more galling now the NHS has covid to deal with.

@wellthatsunusual

Why aren’t the parents advocating caution for their child?

Because then they don't get to pat themselves on the back for being oh so accepting and woke.

That's somewhat unfair. Don't forget these parents are being told constantly that their child will commit suicide if they don't agree to everything.

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

use a young female's case to argue for a treatment which only seems to benefit males

It also "benefits" females - puberty blockers mean they won't require a double mastectomy.

Not my understanding, unfortunately. AFAIK they have less breast tissue to remove, not none. Also, the rates of patients who have puberty blockers and then go on to cross-sex hormones are incredibly high, 98%+ according to the evidence at Keira Bell's recent JR hearing. After a couple of years of these, female patients are likely to need a hysterectomy, which they wouldn't need otherwise.

Can I recommend a book to everyone?

It’s “Mistakes Were Made(But Not by Me)”. It looks at cognitive dissonance and self justification, plus how memory works (and false memories). It doesn’t directly cover this issue, but so much can be applied to understand why people who ought to be rational aren’t on certain issues and when even when provided with facts, tend to double down instead of saying, “Oh, now I understand and I was wrong.”

Very good book which is helping me understand reactions to this issue:

amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1780666950/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1]]

as an aside, I saw an estimate from a transitioner (admittedly in America) who estimated that the total cost of their treatment was approx. $900,000. (you'd imagine the actual cost of care would be similar to UK regardless of whether an insurance co. pays for it or the NHS)

Multiply that by 4,000 (referrals to the Tavistock?) = $3.6bn.

Approx. £2.7bn for those 4,000 patients. (obviously all rough estimate but possible outcome).

A Market Analysis report was published recently predicting a huge rise in the 'transgender market' - I wonder why they would predict that? If you believed the activists claims of increases in anti-trans activity, you'd think the numbers would be going down?

www.businesswire.com/news/home/20201112005815/en/Gender-Dysphoria-Market-Insight-Epidemiology-and-Market-Forecast-2017-2030---ResearchAndMarkets.com

The latter description of LGB Alliance as a 'hate group' does seem libellous to me.

If LGB Alliance is a charity or a company, it can sue for libel. If on the other hand, it's just a campaign group that isn't registered anywhere, then it's much harder for it to sue. I assume Maugham knows this and hasn't just lost his mind.

I do find it odd, however, as with so many people on Maugham's side of the debate, how they refuse to recognise any validity in their opponents' arguments at all. How can you not see that there might be concerns about giving powerful, life-changing medication to troubled adolescents?

I dont think thats fair. When your child is hugely struggling you end up desperate and if medical professionals are telling you this is the solution then you put your trust in them. It can take a long time to feel confident enough to stand up to the professionals. I have this with my sons SEN. At first we did everything we were told. Not all of us understand medical language even. I still get told things like 'child is maladaptive and needs excessive proprioceptive input' and have to head off and look up each word, then assess if their solution is in any way evidenced. I dont have a degree. I was under social services care and got a job at 17 as a secretary.

Its why its really important those with education and time fight as parents are too exhausted looking after their unhappy child.

HPFA

Which particular individuals and organisations are telling parents that their children will commit suicide?

@gardenbird48

Why aren’t the parents advocating caution for their child?

if someone told me that my child had a condition that would require strong medication to be taken for life and major surgery (potentially multiple surgeries with terrible success rates) I would be ever so slightly worried for them and be ripping across the whole internet and every specialist I could get hold of and finding the best possible solution that would ideally avoid the most drastic treatment. But that's just me (and most other people on here obvs).

You should have seen me with my son's eczema - the doctors prescribed steriods but when they explained the side effects I thought that sounded terrible, so I researched extensively and found an alternative method that sorted it completely and he's still clear many years later. A friend of mine had been on steroids for eczema for years including as an adult and got to the point where she felt the need to stop taking them and it was horrendous - she had red raw skin for months.

Steroids may be the best course of action for your friend. I think this case points to the dangers of the internet not away from it. I am sure this child and family have been all over the internet. They will have watched 'happy transition' stories and been told they will commit suicide if the don't transition. They have probably been warned to stay away from moderate or evidence based sites. School has probably been trained to deliver the 'correct' message. There is a huge propeganda machine in operation that many are falling victim to.

Agree with all the other posters on the timing is shocking when you consider the impact COVID has had on cancer treatments. My mum had just started her treatment in February and I’m so glad she did. I can’t imagine how difficult it is for families who are waiting for referrals for this and other treatments.

Best wishes to your mum!

My 9 year old daughter is currently waiting for whole genome sequencing - www.england.nhs.uk/genomics/nhs-genomic-med-service/

It currently takes on average 8 years for children with rare genetic diseases to get a confirmed diagnosis - this black hole even has a name ‘the diagnostic odyssey’ - www.illumina.com/company/news-center/feature-articles/diagnostic-odyssey.html

Absolutely tons of services are overwhelmed, in adults and paediatrics - 2/3 year waits for ASD assessments is typical. Occupational therapy for children over the age of 5 can be double that.

Is Jolyon gonna do the same for all these other issues? Or are autistic kids not fashionable enough?

@PurpleHoodie

HPFA

Which particular individuals and organisations are telling parents that their children will commit suicide?

The BBC for starters: their Butterfly drama included the line better a live daughter than a dead son.

That was ITV.

Seeing as a statistically above average number of children presenting at gender clinics are found to be on the spectrum I suspect earlier diagnosis and support for autism is something that would have a tangible effect on the GIC waiting lists.