Ooo, Jo Maugham isn't happy...

[Xanthangum]

Jo Maugham (@JolyonMaugham) Tweeted:
"We waited some weeks for the BBC to be ready to cover our legal action to protect the legal rights of trans children. And the piece is up and is quite extraordinary. I'm not going to link to it because it is inaccurate and gives space to a transphobic hate group." twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1330758709140729856?s=20

Which I assume refers to this piece:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55015959

And he says this about LGB Alliance, which feels stupidly for a lawyer libellous: The third point is they have quoted the so-called LGB Alliance - a dark money funded astro-turfed hate group - on the healthcare of trans teenagers. What next? Will the BBC be quoting white supremacists on whether sickle cell anaemia should be treated on the NHS?

@PersonaNonGarter
That’s a good point about the judge depending on the stage of the case.

His behaviour is not what a court would usually expect from counsel. It’s like he has transported himself to a US courtroom drama.

Have to say, I really admire the calmness of all the groups being slurred in this way. LGB Alliance, Fair Play For Women, For Women Scot, etc.

Constantly being hounded and libelled for wanting to look out for the interests and rights of women and girls. Bullied and smeared for wanting to look out for the rights of lesbian women and gay men away from an ideological movement full of propaganda that seeks to undermine their rights, that denies sex and same sex attraction, that parrots homophobic tropes and attitudes that the LGB community fought to end.

These groups always respond calmly, gracefully, in the face of such hatred and lies. No rape threats, no death threats, no smear campaigns based on lies.

We can see who the real extremists are. We can see who the real hatred and bigotry is coming from.

"...the so-called LGB Alliance - a dark money funded astro-turfed hate group.."

WOW

I’d be surprised if BBC news makes the suicide claim again. They have a department which analyses news and stress-tests statistics

They have a programme that goes out on this!

Watched it for the first time this weekend. It's called "BBC watch" or some-such.

A programme for MNers to look out for.

@wellthatsunusual

This 'it takes too long to see a specialist, we're being discriminated against' thing really pisses me off.

People are waiting years in my area for hip replacements, gynae appointments, ent appointments, rheumatology appointments, mental health help. There's nothing special about gender clinics.

First time poster in this area.... I have just read this article on the BBC and in light of the pandemic and the state of NHS waiting times in general anyway...I think throwing discrimination into the mix will really get peoples backs up!

I had to wait a year for essential stage 4 endometriosis surgery I had endometriosis all over my bladder and bowels. I went private in the end. A cost we could ill afford as a family! But I had been off work for 6 months so it was impacting every area of my life.

9 months on and I am still being told by the NHS that my original referral is still expected to take another year due to the pandemic. I have kept the surgery place as I am having issues again.

People are dying of cancer and heart conditions on a daily basis due to the pandemic so their timing on this article seems very ill considered.
I fully understand that some teens may become suicidal due to a lack of services.

There does seem to be a growing trend for teens to feel conflicted about their gender. I have seen it first hand over the last three years in both my job and volunteering roles.

Yes yourhair.

Very telling.

I hear there's a campaign to have Boxing Day renamed 'Foxing Day'.

The day after Christmas Day hoardes of children dressed in kimonos and armed with baseball bats string up an effigy of a fox and bash it. Inside are little biscuits with words like 'sanity, 'perspective', 'fairness' and 'due process' on them, which the kids have to gobble up.

What a strange approach he is taking. It's very emotional and unconsidered. The entitlement of expecting the BBC to respond to his press release is quite breathtaking!

It's got a Harrop like feel to it.

Brexit allowed a lot of unpleasant people on both sides of the argument to get a high profile. I think many remainers assumed those on their side were with the angels, however over time their true colours are coming out.

I saw this and couldn't believe they had the audacity to call this news.

@KiposWonderbeasts

My 14yo had to wait 2 weeks before I’d let her bleach her hair, ffs. Bollocks would I let her make life altering permanent medical decisions at that age! Why aren’t the parents advocating caution for their child?

With JM, do you think his garment choice when fox-bashing is why he’s so keen on this?

I made my 14 year old prove they could care for fish before I allowed them to get a hamster.

Spoiler alert, they never got a hamster.

@nauticant

It's got a Harrop like feel to it.

Yes!

@PurpleHoodie

Thank you LittleCabbage and Kit.

Now.

Where do they get their statistics on UK based suicises from? Those that would hold up in Courts of Law say?

Not sure.

Samaritans say compiling suicide rates (for all people) is ‘challenging’. They provide a video explaining why in the following link:

www.samaritans.org/about-samaritans/research-policy/suicide-facts-and-figures/

ONS compiles age group data from coroners rulings, but that doesn’t necessarily tell us anything about gender distress.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2019registrations#suicide-patterns-by-age

(thankfully the numbers of deaths caused by suicide in minors is still low, although it has risen recently amongst girls)

GIDs say suicide amongst the paediatric gender patient population is ‘extremely rare’.
Presumably this is based on information from coroners reports and ‘serious case reviews’, but I can’t see a reference - am I just missing something?

gids.nhs.uk/evidence-base

I found this FOI result via a slightly differently phrased search term:

tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/documents/1253/FOI_18-19180_GIDS_Patients_Suicide_Data.pdf

The one highly publicised case of the suicide of a British transboy (aged 18) occurred whilst on cross sex hormone treatment (prescribed by Dr Webberly of GenderGP, not the NHS)

As yet there is no national nor international evidence that transition lessons the risk of suicide in children or adults. www.genderhq.org/blog/category/Trans+Youth+Ethics

According to GIDs own research into the use of GnRHa medications to suppress puberty, depression and suicide ideation increased in natal females (transboys) whilst taking the drugs and also resulted in increased negative body image in two aspects (whereas natal males reported a positive increase in one aspect):

users.ox.ac.uk/~sfos0060/Biggs_ExperimentPubertyBlockers.pdf

Every suicide is an absolute tragedy, especially in young people, but we can’t do anything to prevent it if the start point is bad or absent data. Anyone who actually cares about gender distressed minors should be up in arms over the shoddy record keeping and politically motivated myth making. Suicide is well known fo spread as a kind of psychological contagion, especially amongst adolescents and young adults. (The following is .gov advice to help stop suicide contagion within the working environment: www.hhs.gov/answers/mental-health-and-substance-abuse/what-does-suicide-contagion-mean/index.html

So using suicide as a pro transition argument could actually result in more suicides amongst those who are gender distressed, rather than fewer.

The BBC are right to keep Jolyon’s suicide baiting out of their article, even if we give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he is being completely unintentional, it still has the potential to increase suicide or suicide ideation amongst gender distressed adolescents.

I hope the trans youth in the case has a good support network, both professionally and personally.

(Link to helplines for anyone who might be reading this who is struggling: www.nhs.uk/conditions/suicide/
Please don’t struggle on alone )

@Xanthangum

I hear there's a campaign to have Boxing Day renamed 'Foxing Day'.

The day after Christmas Day hoardes of children dressed in kimonos and armed with baseball bats string up an effigy of a fox and bash it. Inside are little biscuits with words like 'sanity, 'perspective', 'fairness' and 'due process' on them, which the kids have to gobble up.

After all that mess last year with next-door's hamster, which shouldn't even have been in my garden, we're taking a day off from beating animals to death on Dec. 26th.

I still say Hammy was identifying as a fox.

Thank you Betty for all the links. Really useful. My daughter, in her 20's, has had a friend commit suicide and also 2 friends of friends. My nephew's friend committed suicide as a teenager. Its utterly tragic, so sad to see young people not wanting to continue their lives. But sadly some young people do, nothing to do with being trans.

The other thing to consider about suicide in the transgender population is that transitioning increases risk of suicide considerably. So if transgender teens were struggling with suicide ideation then the last thing they should do is transition.

@sashagabadon

Seems a balanced article to me? I can’t understand jolyon’s point in his Twitter feed. He uses the example of why puberty blockers are important at an early age as otherwise Adam’s apple will drop and voice changes. But surely that is only applicable for male to female people. Reece is a female to male and so no need to worry about these two possible “negative” effects of puberty? What are the positive affects of puberty blockers on female to male transitioners? Are there any? And if there are, why not use those in his Twitter argument instead?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=sJGAoNbHYzk

This is an interesting film which is well worth a watch - The Trans Train.

Puberty blockers in males prevents the penis from developing so he will always have a little boys penis. This affects sexual feelings, means if he wants to have a neo vagina made the surgery is much more extensive and less likely to succeed and he will never experience orgasm. Not something that a young boy can give informed consent on.

@AlwaysTawnyOwl

Thank you Betty for all the links. Really useful. My daughter, in her 20's, has had a friend commit suicide and also 2 friends of friends. My nephew's friend committed suicide as a teenager. Its utterly tragic, so sad to see young people not wanting to continue their lives. But sadly some young people do, nothing to do with being trans.

It’s absolutely heartbreaking, every single time.

The Samaritans suicide is rarely attributable to a single cause, and reporting it as such compounds the problem, rather than helps it.

I lost quite a few friends to suicide when I was late teens/early 20s (a mixture of male and female friends) and sadly, I’m now old enough that my friends are falling into the other statistically significant age group and three have taken their own lives in recent years (all male).

Transactivists directing media focus towards a lack of transition resources as the primary (or worse, sole factor) does everyone experiencing suicide ideation a disservice.
We need evidenced and timely intervention for all in distress, preferably tailored for life stage.

[quote Kit19]PurpleHoodie
Stonewall www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/trans_stats.pdf[/quote]
This report is not considered to be accurate as the survey was not carried out correctly. For a start, a small number responded, and they were invited to respond.
If you ask a group of teens who have anorexia if they have suicidal feelings would you be surprised if they overwhelmingly said yes?

JM claims that

'Children are losing the opportunity to be seen within a window in which they can secure effective treatment and so are, in practice, being denied access to treatments which are correlated with reduced suicide risk.'

Is there any evidence at all that treatments he's describing (puberty blockers, I presume) are correlated with reduced suicide risk? I was under the impression the reverse was true?

Ach, sorry, Betty, I missed your post above. Thanks, that's very informative.

'Children are losing the opportunity to be seen within a window in which they can secure effective treatment and so are, in practice, being denied access to treatments which are correlated with reduced suicide risk.'

In practice, pushing the affirmative transition route scuppers the patient's capacity to access suicidality-reducing MH support effectively.

What on earth does he think is the "problem" requiring treatment?

I'm liking rhinoplasty as an analogy here. Some adults feel suicidal and attribute it to their nose being too big. It's ever so hard having to work and save for surgery (which the NHS fascist oppressors so cruelly deny them). Let's make it easier for kids who are going to grow up to have big noses, by smashing and reforming their noses when they're ten.

It's batshit, but that's JM's logic.

Even worse than your analogy @TyroTerf is the new nose could leave them with a whole host of hideous side effects, reduced cognitive capacity and as a life long medical patient. Never mind not able to grow up and develop an adult's sex life.

No one in their right mind would think this is a good idea for anyone let alone kids.

Maugham'a motivations for going to court on this issue is deeply suspect.

@BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero

if you tell a kid they need surgery to be happy then they're going to fixate on that.

Absolutely. I was a teen when breast implants and nose jobs were first leaving the domain of ‘posh celeb’ and becoming accessible.

Luckily, back then, there was an absolute line that boob jobs weren’t available until you had completed natural pubertal development, by which time we were all out in the world doing first jobs, having romances, going to uni etc, so the inward focus and body hatred of the teenage years had dissipated.

It must be a massive headfuck if the social messages that are feeding your body hatred are also telling you that you must physically act on it before puberty is complete (or you will attempt or suicide).

When you look at the issues in the bigger picture, it’s absolutely obvious that the current day trans narrative is at odd with everything we know about adolescent development (and watchful waiting with psychological support, available in a timely fashion, is far more appropriate).

Gender distress in children and adolescents IS real, but transition is not the evidenced solution Jolyon and his Fishy Friends claim it to be.

This, also yes there is a hint of the good doctor about his behaviour.