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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kier shows his colours

999 replies

averylongtimeago · 21/11/2020 09:50

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

Kier shows his colours
OP posts:
midgebabe · 24/11/2020 14:23

So women prisoners have a lot to worry about so , if I read jj correctly, we should not care about making things worse for them ?

Nope, that doesn't sit well with me

Whatwouldscullydo · 24/11/2020 14:24

Julie bindle spent years helping incarcerated women. She says its a problem...does her opinion carry weight as she's done all the things you said...

jj1968 · 24/11/2020 14:26

@CuriousaboutSamphire

No *@jj1968*

And some of those rebuttals are very garbled, and incorrect!

A quick Google shows that

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/seven-sex-attacks-in-womens-jails-by-transgender-convicts-cx9m8zqpg

Inmates and female gurads alike have been attacked, sexually or otherwise by transwomen inmates

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8211325/Female-prison-officers-raped-inmates-self-identify-trans-women-claim.html

So... try again!

So you respond to a post pointing out misinformation with yet more misinformation. Rory Stewart was either mistaken or lied, the MOJ have been explicit about this,

There have been no reported incidents of any type of sexual assault against prison officers by transgender prisoners.

questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2020-04-21/HL3198

There's been no clarification by the way on whether those 7 incidents over a decade (and I believe 2, possibly 4, refer to Karen White) were committed by trans women, trans men or non binary people.

Whatwouldscullydo · 24/11/2020 14:28

Would you listen to a prisoner herself?

Escapeplanning · 24/11/2020 14:28

A lot of this discussion is coloured by a lack of understanding of sex offending. Usual disclaimer that this is not a generalised accusation or smearing of an entire group, it's a reference to a research paper on the subject.

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/153.full_.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjkq8nDsZvtAhURVRUIHVgnCaEQFjADegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw0LWmqPeoIMTRmtEWVyLB4O" rel="nofollow" target="blank">www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/153.full.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjkq8nDsZvtAhURVRUIHVgnCaEQFjADegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw0LWmqPeoIMTRmtEWVyLB4O

It's on the Fair play for women site.

RedDogsBeg · 24/11/2020 14:30

jj1968

that trans people should be housed on a case by case basis and that dangerous sexual or violent offenders should not be housed in the women's estate?

No, transwomen should be in the male estate. Female prisoners deserve to be housed only with females.

Karen White was a mistake, a big mistake, but a mistake all the same and the MOJ have acknowledged that.

Karen White was not a mistake it was deliberate, the MOJ have not acknowledged it as a mistake and are wriggling like a fish on a line in respect of the court case being brought against them.

I agree that some trans women should not be housed in the female estate, or should even be segregated, but is housing some nervy fully transitioned trans woman banged upp for benefit fraud or something really such a threat when let's not forget women''s prisons contain a lot of women convicted of murder and very serious both violent and sexual offences?

Segregate them in the male prison estate. Do you really think it is acceptable that a prisoner in Ireland, who has self declared as a women and is incarcerated in a female prison, has to have two guards with them at all times in order to prevent them violently sexually assaulting female prisoners? Do you think it is either right or fair for the female prisoners to have that added level of fear and intimidation?

What about the dignity and privacy of female prisoners, prison strips most of it away but what little there is left, that female prisoners are housed with their own sex should be upheld. Have a read of what female prisoners say about being housed with transwomen, why do their feelings, their discomfort, their fears not matter to you? Also note that those prisoners had to do it anonymously and are afraid to voice their concerns within the system, how much worse do you want to make their stay in prison? Is being deprived of their liberty not enough for you that you also insist they are stripped of their right to be housed amongst those of their own sex?

jj1968 · 24/11/2020 14:30

@Whatwouldscullydo

Julie bindle spent years helping incarcerated women. She says its a problem...does her opinion carry weight as she's done all the things you said...
Yes it does, although I've yet to see her opinion be backed up by any clear evidence that this is of serious concern to women in prisons but I admire a lot of the work she has done and I would take very seriously a piece she wrote which was based on actually speaking to women in prison about how trans inclusion had affected them. As yet I haven't seen anything like that. According to the latest figures it looks like theres only about 11 trans women in women's prisons anyway.
Escapeplanning · 24/11/2020 14:31

This reply has been deleted

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gardenbird48 · 24/11/2020 14:31

jj don't you think adding the threat of being raped by a violent male to the other shit conditions suffered by women in prisons is just a little bit cruel?

Why are you so keen on this point? Why not focus on keeping transwomen safe from the nasty men prisoners (although not the one who killed the paedophile recently, that one can handle themself) by housing them in a separate wing? there appear to be enough trans identified prisoners to warrant it now.

Why do they have to be in with the women?

MichelleofzeResistance · 24/11/2020 14:31

case by case basis

No, it shouldn't be case by case. This has been tried, and it is the failure of this policy that has caused this resurgence of women's rights movement.

Case by case has been shown to mean it will simply move from 'If some males' to 'then all males'. There is no honour system, absolutely no evidence of the male people seeking this showing the faintest interest in or care for female people or respect for their needs and boundaries, and a lot of evidence that male people will push the boundaries as far as they possibly can. And gatekeeping becomes impossible.

Case by case in practice (prison is a good example) is always based on presumption of inclusion unless sufficient reasons why not (jj illustrates well that almost no evidence is ever sufficient, enough or justified) and always focuses on the best interests and the safety of the male. Reports from the prison meetings where moving male prisoners to the female estate were discussed show that there were no representatives for the female prisoners, and the best interests of females were not even considered as relevant. The dehumanisation of women and the imbalance of value and consideration for parties involved is stark.

Case by case does not look at all at the essential question of how does placing male prisoners in the female estate benefit the female estate and female prisoners since that should be the sole concern of those planning for it.

Case by case dismisses the idea that no male ever will offend against women - the fact it should be case by case instead of all prisons being mixed sex and an oasis of mutual respect, harmony and kindness. And so it affirms that no matter how carefully a case by case assessment is carried out there will always be the risk of slip ups in which this policy harms a woman: through harassment, assault
or worse. There is the potential for a woman to die through this policy.

So case by case involves actually weighing up whether lifechanging harm and distress to one or more women is a price worth paying to meet a male person's needs.

Could it be less obvious that females are considerably less valued or important to the UK establishment and government than male people? In fact seen as considerably less human? And females are supposed to masochistically, in a properly self sacrificing mummy type way, embrace throwing themselves and their best interests aside for the better good of society and others?

Escapeplanning · 24/11/2020 14:35

This reply has been deleted

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MichelleofzeResistance · 24/11/2020 14:37

is housing some nervy fully transitioned trans woman banged upp for benefit fraud or something really such a threat

see: if some then all

Plus if you're going to somehow find a way to gatekeep to the nice, safe and vulnerable males, then what about the vulnerable gay males? The vulnerable young males? The vulnerable males with MH fragilities? The vulnerable males the other males pick on? The nice, safe males also banged up for benefit fraud?

Women are not a refuge and protection agency there to help males in need. They're human in their own right, they are their own sex, they don't exist only in terms of what males need to use them for.

gardenbird48 · 24/11/2020 14:38

not to mention that a noteable number of transwomen prisoners seem to only 'realise' that they are trans after or during their trial.

I cba to go and double check the figures and source like I usually do because jj will only deny it and accuse me of lying and I need to do the school run in a min. The information is out there though - maybe Keep Prisons Single Sex website?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 24/11/2020 14:38

There's been no clarification by the way on whether those 7 incidents over a decade (and I believe 2, possibly 4, refer to Karen White) were committed by trans women, trans men or non binary people. There is also no clarification of the other sexual assaults within the female estate about the female status of other attackers... becuse that data is not held, has not been accessed, is not being given out... yet!.. also well evidenced, sorry written and spoken about by people who are not whomever it is you want them to be before you will give such things a first, let alone second thought!

It is happening. How many times must it be seen to happen, be brought to court and a sentence handed down no less, before you will consider it a problem?

You see most people, male, female, trans, non binary, gay, uncertain, that I know think that JUST ONE such case is too many! But you seem to have a less stringent view... not that you are sharing the details, of course!

midgebabe · 24/11/2020 14:38

"Only"

This insistence that at something is ok because today it's "only"

Reminds me of there were five in the bed and the little one said....each time it's only a little shove

jj1968 · 24/11/2020 14:41

Karen White was not a mistake it was deliberate, the MOJ have not acknowledged it as a mistake and are wriggling like a fish on a line in respect of the court case being brought against them.

A Prison Service spokesperson said: “We apologise sincerely for the mistakes which were made in this case.

“While we work to manage all prisoners, including those who are transgender, sensitively and in line with the law, we are clear that the safety of all prisoners must be our absolute priority.”

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life

Relentless misinformation, post after post of it, and yet this is the advanced knowledge from the people who've really looked into this subject.

Datun · 24/11/2020 14:41

The crimes of men with a GRC in a female prison are being recorded as female crimes. Not transgender crimes.

TRAs made a huge deal over a right to a private life which involves not disclosing their actual sex, if they have a GRC.

Hence, any crimes committed by men in women's prisons won't be recorded as such, If they have a GRC.

It's just rank manipulation to say there haven't been any, when you have been campaigning for years to make it impossible to record them.

So... try again!

Lord, please don't encourage. It will only result in us being told that looking at websites like Kiwi Farms will result in being arrested for terrorism, and single sex loos being responsible for the decimation of the British tourist industry. 🙄

Quaagars · 24/11/2020 14:41

Plus if you're going to somehow find a way to gatekeep to the nice, safe and vulnerable males, then what about the vulnerable gay males? The vulnerable young males?

Why conflate trans women with gay men, and young men?
Actually no - rhetorical question as I already know the answer - they're all the same to some.

OldCrone · 24/11/2020 14:43

Because if your concerns about female prisoners merely extends to trans inclusion

This thread is about Keir Starmer's comments about trans people. it's not a general thread about women in prison. If you want to start a thread to discuss conditions in women's prisons more generally, you are free to do so.

I'll make a short comment about this, though. Just because this thread isn't focusing on all aspects of life for women prisoners doesn't mean that many of us don't have concerns about the conditions more generally. Just because other bad things are happening, doesn't mean that we shouldn't concern ourselves with any particular issue. In other words, if we are concerned, for example, about women being imprisoned for relatively minor non-violent offences, it doesn't mean that we can't also be concerned about those same women being at risk of rape whilst serving their sentences. It's not either/or.

MichelleofzeResistance · 24/11/2020 14:44

Again I'm left wondering: if the issue is vulnerable males, why not create new and better provision for vulnerable males? Instead of trying to solve this problem for males by commandeering female facilities and provisions.

Is this trying to create a situation of there are difficult/unsafe men and there's this mixed sex pool of everyone else?

Is it seeing women and their facilities and services as terra nulla, that such things only have purpose in how they're useful to males, and if not in some way benefitting males have no business existing?

Or is this a way to disguise and give a nicer veneer to seeking a male right to be given unfettered access to females in female spaces without females having any right of boundaries, consent or consideration?

Quaagars · 24/11/2020 14:45

A Prison Service spokesperson said: “We apologise sincerely for the mistakes which were made in this case
“While we work to manage all prisoners, including those who are transgender, sensitively and in line with the law, we are clear that the safety of all prisoners must be our absolute priority.”

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life

Relentless misinformation, post after post of it

See, this is why it's good to have differing views, and not just one angle -as I was saying upthread!
Otherwise you're left with misinformation being spread as fact and it's good to challenge and question and not just blindly take in everything you're automatically told - as I was saying.

gardenbird48 · 24/11/2020 14:48

Relentless misinformation, post after post of it, and yet this is the advanced knowledge from the people who've really looked into this subject. jj

I tell my kids that if you apologise for doing something, but then carry straight on and do it again, the apology doesn't count.

See aforementioned current court case re. Ministry of Justice for carrying on with their proven to be dangerous policy.

Keeping on telling us we are wrong or lying doesn't make it true.

Whatwouldscullydo · 24/11/2020 14:49

jj

May I ask what you feel about the current issue in Ireland where upon entry to prison, male prison staff cant search thise who identify as women. But female staff cant search in tact male bodies.

This lead to a prisoner unable to he properly searched which could very obviously compromise the safety of prisoners and staff .

Escapeplanning · 24/11/2020 14:50

mobile.twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1331141270782218240

Great thread from Jane Clare Jones useful for turnitonagain to read (not prison)

gardenbird48 · 24/11/2020 14:51

anyway I wish Sir Keir would sort his bloody priorities out and stop this nonsense - I don't vote Labour but this country does need a decent opposition.

He is failing miserably at the moment - the tra's (little owen) are calling him massively transphobic and women are cross - so he needs to grow a pair and sort out the mess of the Labour Party

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