Kier shows his colours

[averylongtimeago]

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Unlike others here I took a step back and decided to do that reading. I decided to look at if/why many women posting here were well ahead of me in their knowledge. And now I wonder why/how many of them have been driven away, banned, furious, silenced here, simply gone, by the relentless pestering of those who don't like what they said?

Not long ago someone on this thread posted a link claiming it demonstrated that 23 trans identified individuals charged or convicted of violent or sexual crimes including murder and rape in 2020 alone.

As it turns out not one trans identified person was convicted of rape, or sexual assault in 2020. One of the people on that list was actually only charged with stealing sandwiches from the supermarket, another for posession of Class A drugs. It would be pushing the envelope somewhat to even call some of the men on that list cross dressers never mind trans identified, unless every man who's ever tried on a pair of knickers is now claimed to be trans identified. The claim that this list represented 23 trans identified violent criminals was simply a lie, one easily refuted by following the link and yet no-one did.

Earlier in the thread we had the claim 'quite a few' attacks had been committed by trans women on other women in toilets. The truth is there is only one report of it ever happening. We've had claims like trans is the safest demographic, based on statistics that seem to be being made up on the spot when over-whelming evidence exists which shows its not true, and claims that studies (plural) have shown trans women are as violent as men when no such studies exist.

Is this what you mean be people being well ahead of you in their knoweldge? Tbh you sound like a sceptic who went on a conspiracy website and was bombarded with information and the links until you too finally saw the truth. It's not uncommon, in fact it's a normal path of radicalisation. Every conspiracy theorist ends up believing things they would have thought were complete nonsense. And once you start down that path it becomes harder and harder to believe as the misinformation has to expand to accommodate all the lies. So reading a report showing the horrifying violence trans people face will create cognitive dissonance, that can't be true, you don't want anything to do with that, you're not the type of person who picks on a marginalised group, so the report must be not just a lie, but yet more evidence of the evil trans conspiracy distorting the facts to try and gain sympathy. And so people sink deeper and deeper and normal objectivity and standards of evidence slip away because when someone's been obsessively talking utter bollocks to everyone they know for the last two years it becomes psychologically very difficult to withdraw from that. I've watched it happen to people who've got sucked into conspracy theories, I've watched their mental health and personal relationship suffer as a result and I'm sorry to say I've seen the exact same patterns of behaviour amongst the more extreme elements of the gender critical movement.

@Quaagars

Someone accused posters of being anti trans - no, I didn't. I said do you read both "sides" - as in, GC articles, and articles from a trans point of view? Didn't accuse anyone of being anti trans? Pretty sure I didn't anyway, so who's doing the twisting again?!

Be fair, that's the track you are riding so of course it came across like that

And yes, I have discussed the arguments made with some of my trans friends, one of who posts here occasionally! Those discussions have been heated, protracted and occasionally very animated! But we all agree that there has been an aggressive attack made on the rights of women and that is is not acceptable to ignore that!

Also (genuine question) how is it listening to "both sides" if your trans mate/s you are talking to are in agreement with you?
I don't think people understand what listening to "both sides" means?
Just because you're talking to someone who is trans, doesn't mean listening to both?

For most people women’s prisons are not a place they spend time or think deeply about so to expect people’s view on this topic to be based around this particular environment is unrealistic.

OK, so you're only prepared to consider the interests of privileged middle class women who are unlikely to end up in prison. Some of us are able to see beyond our own privileged lives and care about the needs of women less fortunate than ourselves, including women prisoners, women escaping domestic violence, women with disabilities...

But you only care about the privileged. That is your right, but you don't have the right to stop anyone else speaking out.

the “slippery slope” argument is made on some topic, usually related to sex, every decade or so. I’ve given a few examples already. The worst fears are almost never realised.

But in the case of prisons, they've already happened.

No @jj1968

And some of those rebuttals are very garbled, and incorrect!

A quick Google shows that

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/seven-sex-attacks-in-womens-jails-by-transgender-convicts-cx9m8zqpg

Inmates and female gurads alike have been attacked, sexually or otherwise by transwomen inmates

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8211325/Female-prison-officers-raped-inmates-self-identify-trans-women-claim.html

So... try again!

The idea that keeping sex segregated spaces , sex segregated is anti trans is bizarre.

I mean all of us have written to mps and filled out consultations etc to campaign for good evidence based health care, safeguarding to be upholded, and privacy and dignity of all upheld too , whats anti trans about that?

Believe it or not we want trans people to he safe and not discriminated against. If there were campaigns for throw spaces you'd have the support from every one of us. Financial contributions too.

How do trans people benefit from ignoring all these factors? Why would we ignore the safeguarding risks of mixed sex spaces? Do you think teenage transmen who have literally gone no further than a baggy t shirt and a hair cut , would be safe in holding cells with men in a police station or using the mens toilets alone at night in a dark train station ?

Why do those on the uther side advocate for the dismantling of safeguarding? Do you honestly that benefits trans people?

Do you think if they are admitted to a&e that withholding their biological sex is a good idea?

would be pushing the envelope somewhat to even call some of the men on that list cross dressers never mind trans identified, unless every man who's ever tried on a pair of knickers is now claimed to be trans identified.

No your are wrong, they don’t need to even try on a pair of knickers to claim to be trans identified. Any man can do so. Cross dressers quite clearly fall under stonewalls definition of trans. Or do you think Stonewall is wrong?

@Quaagars

And yes, I have discussed the arguments made with some of my trans friends, one of who posts here occasionally! Those discussions have been heated, protracted and occasionally very animated! But we all agree that there has been an aggressive attack made on the rights of women and that is is not acceptable to ignore that!

Also (genuine question) how is it listening to "both sides" if your trans mate/s you are talking to are in agreement with you?
I don't think people understand what listening to "both sides" means?
Just because you're talking to someone who is trans, doesn't mean listening to both?

Agree with me? What the hell are you reading?

They disagree wih me on many aspects of the wider trans debate but agree on one point, women's rights are not up for grabs

And... if I may be so bold... when did you finish your extensive review of all transpeople in the world? Is there a specific number of trans people I have to physically talk to to have an opinion worth your while?

claims that studies (plural) have shown trans women are as violent as men when no such studies exist.

You may want to ask Mermaids about this. They linked this a study which showed that transwomen retained male pattern of criminality when trying to refute JKRowlings considered essay. Unfortunately they didn’t seem to understand the study as they claimed it said the exact opposite of what it did. I don’t have the link to the study to hand but someone here might.

But why do you think they wouldn’t retain male criminality? What about saying ‘I identify as a women’ magically renders a man ‘safe’?

@Quaagars

That's just it - why, when people post with a different viewpoint, do people think it's a case of the indignation that some women dare to disagree shock just change your thinking stupid women and AGREE WITH MEEEEEEEE! Who's said anything about changing your thinking? Not everyone has to think the same?!

So all those posts you made upthread about echo chambers and reading non-GC articles didn't imply that if only we would read these we would agree with you? Ok then.

Current policy is that any male with a GRC can be put in a female prison. Irrespective of crime. Without GRC, an assessment is done.

Women have only just managed to stop self ID. Which would mean that any man could have a GRC, by filling out a form.

But let's not forget that Angela Rayner, in the video that Keir Starmer tweeter on Transgender Day of Remeberance, stated that we must reform the GRA, meaning that self id and legally changing sex with the filling out of a form would be right back on the table.

And here (any excuse to post the amazing Julia Long!) is Lisa Nandy, Labour MP and former leadership contender, explicitly stating that she believes males who commit crimes should be recorded as women if that's what they want, and that male rapists should go to female prisons if that's what they want. Complete with a 'kind and compassionate' round of applause from the audience when she repeats the TWAW/TMAM mantra.

What the actual fuck

So if you think this stuff could 'never happen' you are seriously mistaken.

@charlestonchaplin

Are you really saying turnit, that in order to spare the feelings of male criminals, including rapists, we must let them into women’s prisons and wait to see the effects of their presence. When the number of sexual assaults is high enough, policies will be changed, is that what you’re saying? So female prisoners must be part of an experiment which is almost certain to fail and it is acceptable for them to be collateral damage. All to spare the feelings of males. Wow!

Why are you assuming that the only possible response is no trans woman in a woman's prison ever or fill women's prisons with rapists?

Surely a more moderate positon, and one that is closer to what's actually happening, is that trans people should be housed on a case by case basis and that dangerous sexual or violent offenders should not be housed in the women's estate? Karen White was a mistake, a big mistake, but a mistake all the same and the MOJ have acknowledged that. I agree that some trans women should not be housed in the female estate, or should even be segregated, but is housing some nervy fully transitioned trans woman banged upp for benefit fraud or something really such a threat when let's not forget women''s prisons contain a lot of women convicted of murder and very serious both violent and sexual offences?

So all those posts you made upthread about echo chambers and reading non-GC articles didn't imply that if only we would read these we would agree with you? Ok then.

Just because I said to read non GC views as well, doesn't mean I was implying you should agree with me!
All I meant was to read non GC views too as (yes I know lots have) but it definitely sounds like some (not all!) definitely don't, and get (their words, not mine) "flamed, harangued, intimidated, sent links to articles" etc from here and all I was saying was that's not healthy and should look at BOTH sides instead of coming in to the debate "all new" and only looking at one side.
That's it.
As in, you don't have to agree with me, just that a more balanced reading of both GC and non GC is healthier - then you decide yourself where you "fall."
(Fall not being any hidden meaning, just means where you fall on the discussion!)

fairplayforwomen.com/campaigns/prisons/

Case by case is what got White into the female estate!

Not going to respond to may last post at all?

From the document above

One brave woman in prison decided to make a stand and is now suing the government saying the new transgender policy puts her and other women in danger. Fair Play For Women is supporting her legal claim and has provided written evidence to the court regarding our engagement with MOJ and HMPPS officials. We also attended the court hearing on the 28th October 2020 which was adjourned on the day due to a late submission of evidence by the defence. The case is now expected to proceed early in the new year. Watch this space for updates.

The claimant’s legal team will argue that the new transgender policies do not adequately consider the detrimental impact on female prisoners and should be quashed. This is a crucial step on the journey to ensure the safety and well-being of women in prison is protected. If the MOJ is ordered to scrap its transgender guidance this means we’ll have another chance to make sure the impact on women is properly considered. This time the MOJ will have to conduct a comprehensive analysis of all the risks and harms to women and to do this in full and effective consultation with experts, advocates for female prisoners and female prisoners themselves.

Our work will continue to campaign & lobby for the best outcome for women in prison. This is our big chance to make this right. Women in prison are some of the most vulnerable women in society and the least able to speak up for their rights. They deserve kindness and care too.

@Joisanofthedales

A bit late I know but I wanted to thank escape planning for her wonderful post at 08.54.

Thanks ☺️

It's overlooked that women in their 60s are no where as equal as women under 40. It's sad that this group are now dismissed as out of touch boomers. They haven't benefited from the equality they achieved for the under 40s in economic parity.

Questions to the pro trans people on this thread:

Do you think people, whose sex was stated to be male at birth and who have been socialised as male and make no effort to change their appearance or behaviour are trans because they say they are?

Do you think that transwomen, who are attracted to women are lesbians and that same sex attracted lesbians should agree to have sex with them as they have lady penises?

No they should not be housed on a case by case basis. I mean why grant that right to transwomen and not all men?

I know it's off topic but it's relevant to the assumption of privileged older women being unkind to male transitioners who are in the same age cohort and are driving policy change for their benefit.
www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/genderpaygapintheuk/2019
2.Main points
The gender pay gap among full-time employees stands at 8.9%, little changed from 2018, and a decline of only 0.6 percentage points since 2012.

The gender pay gap among all employees fell from 17.8% in 2018 to 17.3% in 2019, and continues to decline.

For age groups under 40 years, the gender pay gap for full-time employees is now close to zero.

Among 40- to 49-year-olds the gap (currently 11.4%) has decreased substantially over time.

Among 50- to 59- year-olds and those over 60 years, the gender pay gap is over 15% and is not declining strongly over time.

One of the reasons for differences in the gender pay gap between age groups is that women over 40 years are more likely to work in lower-paid occupations and, compared with younger women, are less likely to work as managers, directors or senior officials.

Not long ago someone on this thread posted a link claiming it demonstrated that 23 trans identified individuals charged or convicted of violent or sexual crimes including murder and rape in 2020 alone.

ok you've got me there - the murder case is on trial atm and not yet a conviction but seeing as he was found with his mother's head in his freezer I think he might get found guilty.

take away the Class A drugs - I didn't spot that at the bottom and you have, hmmm. I'm not sure where you have the information about stealing sandwiches - that's not on there.

What is listed is 21 (not including possession of Class A's or the murder case) violent and sexual crimes (or do you not count possession of 300,000 images of child sex abuse of the most serious nature including bestiality not that serious? It isn't a victimless crime you know.

These crimes are listed for 2020 and include members under the trans umbrella - what is the slogan again #wearewhowesayweare (or something?)

I don't know why you keep accusing me of lying jj the information is there for all to see:

transcrimeuk

found with his mother's head in his freezer I think he might get found guilty.

Maybe Ocado delivered it?

@jj1968

The Times, January 2020:

'Scots trans law is threat to women, says ex-head of prison'

'A former Scottish prison governor has spoken out against gender reforms that she argues will expose female inmates to higher risk of physical or sexual assault from transgender women.

Rhona Hotchkiss said there were 22 individuals who were born men but identified as the opposite sex in Scottish jails when she stepped down last year as the head of Cornton Vale, Scotland’s women’s prison.

In an address to a new campaign group formed to fight the Scottish government’s Gender Recognition Reform Bill, Hotchkiss warned that proposals to make it easier for individuals to switch gender would allow many more men “who may want to hurt women” to gain transgender status and be housed among female prisoners.'

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scots-trans-law-is-threat-to-women-says-ex-head-of-prison-snv7zwpmd

@OldCrone

For most people women’s prisons are not a place they spend time or think deeply about so to expect people’s view on this topic to be based around this particular environment is unrealistic.

OK, so you're only prepared to consider the interests of privileged middle class women who are unlikely to end up in prison. Some of us are able to see beyond our own privileged lives and care about the needs of women less fortunate than ourselves, including women prisoners, women escaping domestic violence, women with disabilities...

But you only care about the privileged. That is your right, but you don't have the right to stop anyone else speaking out.

the “slippery slope” argument is made on some topic, usually related to sex, every decade or so. I’ve given a few examples already. The worst fears are almost never realised.

But in the case of prisons, they've already happened.

How many female prisoners and ex prisoners have you talked to about this? Is trans inclusion the biggest concern female prisoners have? Would it top their lists over being held in their cells for 23 hours a day, shit food, lack of training opportunties, racist prison offciers and other the other thing women are facing in prison? Have you really thought what it must be like for women in prison under COVID lockdowns? Have you spoken out against the growing rate of both physical and sexual assaults on female prisoners that have nothingto do with trans inclusion? Do you support getting male screws out of prison? Or even better getting a lot of women out of prison who were not convicted of serious violent offences?

Because if your concerns about female prisoners merely extends to trans inclusion and you show little interest in the horrifying realities of day to day prison life then you don't care about women prisoners, you're just using them to make a point. That's why you never see any other threads on here about the appalling conditions in the prison system.

So women do it too
Other things to think about
Prison officer abuse...

So tell me why any of that means males should he placed there , why rape potential is acceptable flr the trans prisoners to be placed in womens prison but not acceptable as a point to keep them in the mens.

And when would be a good time to deal with trans inclusion problems? When we have world peace?