Kier shows his colours

[averylongtimeago]

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

if your concern is rape by males against females there are many, many parts of society where this needs to be addressed. For most people women’s prisons are not a place they spend time or think deeply about so to expect people’s view on this topic to be based around this particular environment is unrealistic.

So who should speak out and be concerned for the women who are in prison? Are you 100% convinced that you will never end up in prison? Even by mistake? Or have you dismissed those women as not being worth bothering about? Yes. There are many parts of society where men's violence against women needs to be addressed - why are we facilitating the men by removing women's safeguards? Why did we start having single sex spaces in the first place?

the “slippery slope” argument is made on some topic, usually related to sex, every decade or so. I’ve given a few examples already. The worst fears are almost never realised.

I don't see it as a 'slippery slope' argument - I see it as deliberately legislating to make it easier for the predators to be predators instead of trying to prevent bad things happening. The sexual assault at knifepoint of the little girl in Scotland was entirely preventable.

The actions of the social worker (backed by the authorities) who allowed Dolotowski to use the women's toilets enabled that attack. What if you were that social worker - how would your conscience be feeling now?

True, most rape has nothing to do with transwomen

So what?

Very few blokes called Kevin ever commit rape. Let's put them in women's jails too. Kevin's will now be safer

longest Freedom of religion requires people to respect the sanctity of another's belief (including that they need sex segregated spaces, as it happens) without needing people to actually believe in that person's God.

It requires people to respect that another person holds that belief, it doesn't require a respect of that belief, it doesn't require another person to believe that belief because not to do so would 'erase' the person who believes very existence, it doesn't mean than by not believing the deeply held belief of that person it invalidates them, their God or their belief in that God.

Gay rights require people to accept gay marriage as valid, No they require people to accept that gay marriage is legal and enshrined in law.

I do not believe large numbers of male sex offenders will identify as women in order to get into female prisons, where they will then freely rape women with no consequences. The same case has been mentioned about 10 times. That suggests to me it’s not a widespread problem

1 in 50 men in prison currently identify as women. The numbers involved would swamp women’s prisons if integrated, given the ratios of women:men in prison. There aren’t the facilities in women’s prisons to accommodate violent males, because they’ve simply never been needed.

I can dig out the stats, and the pieces written by prison governors/ experts, but would you read them if I did? Could you be persuaded that in fact, you didn’t have all the facts? Because I will, if you could.

That suggests to me it’s not a widespread problem even if it weren’t, does that make it ok?

1% of “female” population in women’s prisons are trans yet 5.6% of all sex attacks on women in prison over the last decade were carried out by transwomen. This will increase as the prevalence of transgenderism increases and of self id. The increasing numbers of transwomen being released into the female population.

Hell there is even a sportsman, who admitted self ID’ing as woman to prolong his career (this is how brazen the self ID’ing can now be) and several others have clearly done the same. If so called “honourable men”, who have no intention of getting incarcerated will do it, are you seriously that naive to suggest criminals won’t?

SophoclestheFox yes the evidence given by experts to the government committee regarding self-id was damning and totally disregarded in pursuit of this Brave New World and then look, oh dear, what was said would happen, did happen, but ah, um, yeah, but nothing to see here.

Fgs a Labour politician a matter of months ago has said on record that a male rapist and paedophile should be placed in a female prison because he identifies as a woman.

For most people women’s prisons are not a place they spend time or think deeply about so those women don’t count.

stranger attacks are not the majority so they don’t count either.

@turnitonagain

It does mean you re not making a convincing argument.

Not convincing to you. Many read MN and don’t post. And several posting here do agree with me.

Current policy is that any male with a GRC can be put in a female prison. Irrespective of crime. Without GRC, an assessment is done.

Women have only just managed to stop self ID. Which would mean that any man could have a GRC, by filling out a form.

The official policy deliberately ignores the exemptions in the equality act. This mechanism can be eliminated overnight, completely legally. But the MOJ chooses not to.

Of course, this doesn't happen in reverse. Women with a GRC are not routinely incarcerated in men's prisons.

And we all know why.

Furthermore, any man with GRC is recorded as a woman in a female prison. So you asking how many there are, is an unanswerable question. Forever unknown and unknowable. Those poor women.

Currently there are 34 transgender prisoners in female prisons, recorded as male. We don't know if they are women identifying as men with a GRC or men identifying as women without one.

But you know, erasing the category of women as being based on biological sex isn't a problem, right?

When I last checked the figures, there were about 14,000 men in prison for sex offences, and 120 women.

if women hadn't stopped self ID (which took so long, and involved so much) any one of those men could have obtained a GRC in a couple of weeks, and made an automatic transfer to a female prison.

When laws are being changed, and policy formulated, which treats women as nothing more than a validation tool, it's not a niche problem.

@midgebabe

True, most rape has nothing to do with transwomen

So what?

Very few blokes called Kevin ever commit rape. Let's put them in women's jails too. Kevin's will now be safer

48% of transwomen in prison are there for sexual offences

If the powers that be had half a brain cell between them and a even the tiniest bit of care and concern for women then it would never, ever have been on their radar to place Karen White in a female prison thinking it would be a good idea, so why did they do it?

Not to mention: is there a way to both ensure that a TW is safe from even the possibility of abuse from male prisoners, has privacy and dignity in sleeping arrangements, showers and toilets etc, and a setting that respects and supports their identity as TW

and

that female prisoners have equal safety from even the possibility of abuse from male prisoners, has privacy and dignity in sleeping arrangements, showers and toilets etc, and a setting that respects and supports their identity as biological females?

Yes. That would be the creation of specialist wings. Why is this not an acceptable compromise to ensure the safety of everyone equally?

The utter stupidity of putting a known serial rapist (and we're not talking mild here) into a women's facility and allowing those women to be harmed should have caused an absolute explosion of inquiries, national outrage and resignations. It didn't.

I have seen TRAs admit the bottom line here truly is it is acceptable that some females will suffer, but it's worth it for the greater good of male people.

As one of those females, no, fuck that. I'm not signing up to that and why the hell would I?

It’s also worth noting that as little as five years ago, the notion that a male convicted of any violent or sexual crime could be housed in a women’s prison was laughable

I was mocked on a thread on AIBU for suggesting that allowing prisoners to self identify into women’s prisons wasn’t a good idea- the reason for the scorn being that nobody would ever think of suggesting something so absurd! But in that short space of time, the Overton window has been shifted away from that idea as absurd and it is now the reality.

We honestly are relying on rapists and violent men to do the decent thing and not lie. Incredible.

Sorry fable, I was being unclear.

I was addressing the wierd person who seems to think that because most transwomen are nice, we should just shut up and move over

If they could produce any evidence that transwomen wee materially different to men in their offending patterns then I would be prepared to rethink my position.

turnitonagain wrote: .....

"I do not believe large numbers of male sex offenders will identify as women in order to get into female prisons ..... "

.
The Mail in July 2019:

'One in 50 male prisoners identify as female, compared with one in 200 in the general population'

'One in 50 male prisoners claims to be transgender – four times the number in the population as a whole.'

'The figures, in the annual report by Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Prisons, suggest there are 1,500 transgender inmates in England and Wales – ten times more than government estimates.

Only six months ago, the Ministry of Justice said there were just 139 transgender prisoners.'

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7230755/One-50-male-prisoners-identify-female.html

A bit late I know but I wanted to thank escape planning for her wonderful post at 08.54.

midgebabe sorry, my point was directed at them not you.

@SophocIestheFox

It’s also worth noting that as little as five years ago, the notion that a male convicted of any violent or sexual crime could be housed in a women’s prison was laughable

I was mocked on a thread on AIBU for suggesting that allowing prisoners to self identify into women’s prisons wasn’t a good idea- the reason for the scorn being that nobody would ever think of suggesting something so absurd! But in that short space of time, the Overton window has been shifted away from that idea as absurd and it is now the reality.

We honestly are relying on rapists and violent men to do the decent thing and not lie. Incredible.

You're not the only one. The women here were routinely vilified for inventing stupid 'slippery slope' arguments.

About sport, prison, rape refuges. It wouldn't happen, someone would stop it, don't be so silly, imagine the headlines, etc.

It is happening, it has happened. Rapists sexual assaulting women in prisons, officially sanctioning men in women's sport, cross dressers posting selfies in porny PVC nurses outfits, managing medical centres for women.

It is happening. And no one is stopping it.

And adult entertainers with graphic public social media accounts being promoted as child role models in schools,

You’re quite stupid if you think that’s what I’m saying. Sorry to be blunt Don't apologise. But that really is waht you seem to be saying... absent a reply to any of the direct questions being asked of you!

I do not believe large numbers of male sex offenders will identify as women in order to get into female prisons, where they will then freely rape women with no consequences

So its ok as long as there are consequences?

If the danger to one transwoman in a mens prison is enough to get them placed in a womans prison then surely the rape of one woman should be enough to stop it happening?

Unless you truly believe the rights of those born male cone before women?

@Joisanofthedales

A bit late I know but I wanted to thank escape planning for her wonderful post at 08.54.

and thanks to Michelle for her clarity and who was it that mentioned wheels on the runway - love that - I was a bit nervous of posting on here at the beginning - I realised that you have to actually make a point, evidence it and then see what people think and evaluate the response (or lack of). Robust discussion I think.

Who was the person a few pages back who wanted a debate so we asked them to tell us their position and asked a couple of questions? Have they been back yet?

@turnitonagain

There are lots of people who think this isn't really a thing. It's not really happening. Or it's happening elsewhere, to people that you are never likely to come into contact with. And it will remain ring fenced and not something that will impact you or your family.

Until it does.

Completely erasing the concept of sex as biological has manifold implications. On and on.

And when you add in the knowledge that questioning it is, fearfully or angrily, depending on who you talk to, very much discouraged, you begin to see the problem.

Jesus, the twisting. Someone accused posters of being anti trans and asking if they even listen to different viewpoints. So a poster mentions trans friends/family (which I've seen them mention before) and that's not good enough because it's ''I have black friends, me.''

And this What happens then? They rape all the female inmates with no punishment? There’s no public or media outcry?

How about not putting rapists in with women in the first place. It's all well and good saying the scumbags can be punished later, what about the long term effects on the female victim? One of Karen White's victims was so badly damaged internally, she may not be able to have children. That's the physical damage rape can cause, not to mention the life changing mental health impact. But that's okay because at least the rapist will get 'punished'? You'd be happy if you or your daughter were raped brutally in a place that's meant to be strictly single sex, where there were meant to be strict safeguards in place?

Would you be happy allowing a known paedophile being a teacher, and saying it's alright if he does anything 'cause we'll punish him and the media will kick off if he acts on it? No, we have safeguards to do our best to prevent that. Why should it be any different for vulnerable women?

I asked earlier and I can't see anyone answered. Do the posters who come here telling us we need to be kinder do the same on trans forum 'echo chambers', when any comment of disagreement, no matter how well thought out, respectful and polite, is deleted and you're banned? Do you tell them to rein in the activists threatening to rape and stamp on women's heads in the name of trans rights? Do you lecture them on the misogyny, homophobia and racism coming from their activists? Do you tell them they must all be wrong because some transgender and transsexual people disagree with them?

Or do you just come to tell off the naughty disobedient women?

Someone accused posters of being anti trans - no, I didn't.
I said do you read both "sides" - as in, GC articles, and articles from a trans point of view?
Didn't accuse anyone of being anti trans? Pretty sure I didn't anyway, so who's doing the twisting again?!

@Quaagars

Someone accused posters of being anti trans - no, I didn't. I said do you read both "sides" - as in, GC articles, and articles from a trans point of view? Didn't accuse anyone of being anti trans? Pretty sure I didn't anyway, so who's doing the twisting again?!

I didn't say you did. There are posts saying there's an anti-trans tone here. I didn't say it was you

For most people women’s prisons are not a place they spend time or think deeply about so to expect people’s view on this topic to be based around this particular environment is unrealistic.

It's a sex exemption in the Equality Act 2010 issue. We have thought about it. This is the focus of legal action.