Kier shows his colours

[averylongtimeago]

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

Are you really saying turnit, that in order to spare the feelings of male criminals, including rapists, we must let them into women’s prisons and wait to see the effects of their presence. When the number of sexual assaults is high enough, policies will be changed, is that what you’re saying? So female prisoners must be part of an experiment which is almost certain to fail and it is acceptable for them to be collateral damage. All to spare the feelings of males. Wow!

assaults only really ever happen from family members and people they know, so rape, sexual assault etc isn't something they should worry their little heads over or take precautions against.

Indeed. Starting from a very young age, being followed home from school by a man, around age 9, being flashed by a man, age 12, age 13, a male opening the door to me stark naked when I was doing my paper round, a male trying to drag me into a car, age 15, it goes on and on, the sexual violence gets more physical as I get older, again, angry sexually aggressive men on trains, in nightclubs, in alyways. I need more than two hands to count the number of incidents and assaults. Not one of these men were a family member, nor were they known to me.

MichelleofzeResistance

This is so true!

Women are constantly told they have to modify their behaviour in order to avoid getting raped/assaulted/murdered. Don't get too drunk, don't wear that revealing clothing, don't walk alone at night, there are perverts on every corner, you can never be too careful, don't be reckless etc.

However, as soon as women suggest something that might keep them safe but which means that males might not get to do what they want (ie. Keeping certain spaces single sex) then suddenly it's all 'what's all the fuss about, you are paranoid, most crimes committed against women happen in the home you know, how dare you suggest that males might be dangerous, you think a man is going to bother harming you....'

The misogynistic double standard is just breathtaking to be honest!

@charlestonchaplin

Are you really saying turnit, that in order to spare the feelings of male criminals, including rapists, we must let them into women’s prisons and wait to see the effects of their presence. When the number of sexual assaults is high enough, policies will be changed, is that what you’re saying? So female prisoners must be part of an experiment which is almost certain to fail and it is acceptable for them to be collateral damage. All to spare the feelings of males. Wow!

There is no other justification, if you can call it that. There isn't a single, solitary part of the concept that takes even an iota of the women into account.

It's the arrogance of the belief that these thoughtless and ill-informed positions are going to persuade us that there is nothing to see here that makes me smile.

Likewise the indignation that some women dare to disagree just change your thinking stupid women and AGREE WITH MEEEEEEEE! Such resilience.

turnitonagain and what do you say to the women who are the victims of male rapists incarcerated with them? "Oh dear, sorry and all that, oh well, never mind" and then just leave the women to get over something that should never have happened to them in the first place. If the powers that be had half a brain cell between them and a even the tiniest bit of care and concern for women then it would never, ever have been on their radar to place Karen White in a female prison thinking it would be a good idea, so why did they do it?

Frankly, in my opinion, what happened to Karen White's victims both in the psychiatric facility and in prison sails uncomfortably close to state sanctioned rape and sexual assault.

Oops! That well thought out point didn't turn out too well, did it?

@charlestonchaplin

Are you really saying turnit, that in order to spare the feelings of male criminals, including rapists, we must let them into women’s prisons and wait to see the effects of their presence. When the number of sexual assaults is high enough, policies will be changed, is that what you’re saying? So female prisoners must be part of an experiment which is almost certain to fail and it is acceptable for them to be collateral damage. All to spare the feelings of males. Wow!

You’re quite stupid if you think that’s what I’m saying. Sorry to be blunt.

Frankly, in my opinion, what happened to Karen White's victims both in the psychiatric facility and in prison sails uncomfortably close to state sanctioned rape and sexual assault.

Yes, I agree.

turnitonagain

You said:

ok so let’s say male sex offenders identify as female and go into female prisons in large numbers. What happens then? They rape all the female inmates with no punishment? There’s no public or media outcry? There’s no inquest or investigation? Which would lead to a change in policy?

So you agree with the concept? Or do you disagree with the concept and hope public outcry stops it.

Because there has been a public outcry, by those who know it happened, and it hasn't stopped it.

A man in Ireland who has gone around literally telling everyone who wants to listen that he wants to rape women, is in a women's prison.

You appear to be saying well, he will eventually rape a woman, and then it will be stopped.

Which hasn't worked so far.

Do you genuinely agree with the concept, unless it goes according to predictions?

Do you think when women are incarcerated, one of the things on their minds should be will I housed with a sex offender?

Turn it on

So what are you saying?

Because I must also be stupid

You know, I can understand, that due to female socialisation, many women will want to use the correct pronouns, and don't really grasp the implications of erasing women as a biological sex.

But I will never, as long as I live, understand a person who thinks women should be housed with rapists as part of their punishment in prison.

And that rapists should be given vulnerable women who can't escape, as part of theirs.

I mean, apart from anything else, just look at the polar opposite of those two situations.

It's positively mediaeval.

And to the rest of you, who I don’t have time to individually respond to:

• if your concern is rape by males against females there are many, many parts of society where this needs to be addressed. For most people women’s prisons are not a place they spend time or think deeply about so to expect people’s view on this topic to be based around this particular environment is unrealistic.

• acknowledging the fact that most male violence against women is done by known perpetrators does not mean stranger rape is irrelevant. But rather that when assessing risk of violence it needs to be clearly stated that stranger attacks are not the majority, so focusing on them excessively is - to the OP - the same as what the “trans day of remembrance” is being accused of. Scaring women into thinking the trans in the bushes is going to rape them.

• the “slippery slope” argument is made on some topic, usually related to sex, every decade or so. I’ve given a few examples already. The worst fears are almost never realised.

What I wonder is - do you all want it to go horribly wrong? Because it does seem a bit like you do. Just to say “I told you so!!! We’ve gone to hell in a handbasket.”

ok so let’s say male sex offenders identify as female and go into female prisons in large numbers. What happens then? They rape all the female inmates with no punishment? There’s no public or media outcry? There’s no inquest or investigation? Which would lead to a change in policy?

You act like you’re living in a rape-based dictatorship.

turnit your point really is not clear here - it is just a series of questions and without an indication of what you think the situation is, I honestly don't get it - I read it how charleston read it and I think you are bang out of order to call her stupid.

This is a civilised space where you bring your best game - Point. Evidence. Explain!! my kids have been learning how to express themselves like that for years.

Male sex offenders are identifying as women in fairly large numbers and going into women's prisons.
They are raping female inmates
I hope they are getting punished
The media are very muted on the subject for reasons most of us on FWR are aware of.
An investigation has been forced by the recent court case (see below)
The Ministry of Justice appear to be standing by their policy at the moment because safeguarding of women doesn't seem to be high on their 'to do' list.

please could you explain your point.

The current court case where a woman prisoner is taking the Ministry of Justice to court for this very policy of housing male-bodied prisoners (apparently with little risk assessment as to convicted rapists, violent offenders etc ie. the risk assessments that are done are failing to weed out the rapists)

@midgebabe

Turn it on

So what are you saying?

Because I must also be stupid

I do not believe large numbers of male sex offenders will identify as women in order to get into female prisons, where they will then freely rape women with no consequences. The same case has been mentioned about 10 times. That suggests to me it’s not a widespread problem.

My point is clear, many here refuse to accept it. That doesn’t mean I’m not expressing myself.

It does mean you re not making a convincing argument.

@Datun

You know, I can understand, that due to female socialisation, many women will want to use the correct pronouns, and don't really grasp the implications of erasing women as a biological sex.

But I will never, as long as I live, understand a person who thinks women should be housed with rapists as part of their punishment in prison.

And that rapists should be given vulnerable women who can't escape, as part of theirs.

I mean, apart from anything else, just look at the polar opposite of those two situations.

It's positively mediaeval.

Me too @turnitonagain for ^^ this does appear to be what you’re saying. Ie let’s have an experiment. Except we’ve had one of those and if you bothered to read the articles I posted you’d know the experiment didn’t end in favour of the natal women. Rather a happy ending for rapists though....

How many women must be raped before you think of it as a problem?
We already have evidence however that it occurs when self id is not legally accepted
Why do you think that it won't become more of a problem if switching gender is made easier ?
Do you think that most rapists are convicted?
Why do you want to focus so much on rape when it's human dignity that's at much at stake?

It does mean you re not making a convincing argument.

Not convincing to you. Many read MN and don’t post. And several posting here do agree with me.

Most rape has nothing to do with transwomen. Honestly if you want the truth I think stepfathers and male partners moving in are the greatest danger to girl children in Britain today. But that’s a different topic.

@turnitonagain

And to the rest of you, who I don’t have time to individually respond to:

• if your concern is rape by males against females there are many, many parts of society where this needs to be addressed. For most people women’s prisons are not a place they spend time or think deeply about so to expect people’s view on this topic to be based around this particular environment is unrealistic.

• acknowledging the fact that most male violence against women is done by known perpetrators does not mean stranger rape is irrelevant. But rather that when assessing risk of violence it needs to be clearly stated that stranger attacks are not the majority, so focusing on them excessively is - to the OP - the same as what the “trans day of remembrance” is being accused of. Scaring women into thinking the trans in the bushes is going to rape them.

• the “slippery slope” argument is made on some topic, usually related to sex, every decade or so. I’ve given a few examples already. The worst fears are almost never realised.

What I wonder is - do you all want it to go horribly wrong? Because it does seem a bit like you do. Just to say “I told you so!!! We’ve gone to hell in a handbasket.”

Keep Prisons Single Sex, Fair Play for Women, the case brought by one of the female victims of Karen White, endless threads on here.

All devote time, energy and a lot of money to try to stop this disgusting policy.

We don't have to wait for something to happen. It already is happening.

You seem to be under the impression that this is a very niche thing. Only happening at the margins.

It isn't.

Counting the number of women to whom this is a direct issue, is not the same as discussing the concept that has allowed it to happen.

The mechanism is there to allow this to happen to any woman. The mechanism needs stopping. Even one woman is too many. Because the mechanism itself is an utter disgrace to the humanity of all women. For the benefit of men's feelings including those of rapists. Ffs.

So where is the line drawn in application of sex exemptions? This is the subject of legal action by Anne Sinnot and that's made clear in her crowdfunder.
Have a look at that and explain where the line should better be drawn .

Yeah, a sad few do agree that women are worth less than men unfortunately
A sad few do agree that a few rapes is a small price to pay for letting men be themselves
Because that does seem to be your position

That's just it - why, when people post with a different viewpoint, do people think it's a case of the indignation that some women dare to disagree shock just change your thinking stupid women and AGREE WITH MEEEEEEEE!
Who's said anything about changing your thinking? Not everyone has to think the same?!