Kier shows his colours

[averylongtimeago]

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

I'm sure there's a word for people who think that those they disagree with shouldn't be allowed political representation. I wonder what it might be.

I have engaged. My point is clear, many here refuse to accept it. That doesn’t mean I’m not expressing myself.
I won’t debate on specific cases any more than I did with the guy in my politics class at uni who argued black men are more prone to crime therefore police profiling policies is right. He had lots of evidence too. We have a word for people like that and it’s not “race critical.”

Exactly to all that and well said

It always comes back to this for me: If women lose our legal identity then we lose the ability to name ourselves, to organise as women, to meet as women, to talk as women. We won't even have the language to do so (already happening).

It's not as sensational sounding as some of the other points and stories raised here and it may not even become a major issue in my lifetime but it's what keeps me coming back to this board.

I can remember when we didn't have many of the rights some young women now take for granted. We won them largely because we were able to organise and fight for them. If we lose this ability to talk and to organise I honestly don't know what we would do. I have no idea how we'd come back from that.

I won’t debate on specific cases any more than I did with the guy in my politics class at uni who argued black men are more prone to crime therefore police profiling policies is right. He had lots of evidence too. We have a word for people like that and it’s not “race critical.”

Do you accept that men, as a sex class, overwhelmingly perpetrate all kinds of crime, physically and sexually violent crime?

Is it 'bigoted' to say that men are much higher risk to women than women are to men?

[quote turnitonagain]@OldCrone ok so let’s say male sex offenders identify as female and go into female prisons in large numbers. What happens then? They rape all the female inmates with no punishment? There’s no public or media outcry? There’s no inquest or investigation? Which would lead to a change in policy?

You act like you’re living in a rape-based dictatorship.[/quote]
You have heard of Karen White yes?

Women are often berated for using the example of Karen White as a reason why males, particularly male rapists, shouldn't be in female prisons.

However that doesn't stop the likes of Lisa Nandy still pushing forward with her belief that blokes who are rapists should be allowed into female prisons if they feel like it.

It's a bit late to prosecute after the rape when we could have easily prevented it in the first place

The rate of male sexual attacks is so high, and it could be about 1 in 20 males a likely sex offender....that is why we allow sex separation in the first place.

To say it doesn't apply if you say the right words and wear the right clothes is a asking for trouble

@duckwit Most women are victims to men known to them, usually in their own families or in personal relationships.

Yes men who women decide to trust have the easiest chance to abuse them

What happens then? They rape all the female inmates with no punishment? There’s no public or media outcry?

You talk as if this hasn't happened.

There's been precious little outcry for Karen White's victims, very little interest in the policy that created the crime they were harmed by while under lock and key in the care of others. There's been rather a lot of things said in the press to make clear this was not an isolated incident, just one that escaped into the public domain. (And I worked for local govt for some years, I'm well aware how many things happen that are 'successfully' kept from escaping into the press and becoming public knowledge, and how an escaped story like this is regarded as a failure.)

So I can only imagine you think one or two don't matter and it's only if enough women are harmed that enough fuss is made that possibly we should consider the needs and rights of women not to be raped or put in such discomfort and danger for the better happiness of male people.

[quote turnitonagain]@duckwit Most women are victims to men known to them, usually in their own families or in personal relationships.[/quote]
That wasn't my question.

My questions were:

Do you accept that men, as a sex class, overwhelmingly perpetrate all kinds of crime, physically and sexually violent crime?

Is it 'bigoted' to say that men are much higher risk to women than women are to men?

Can you answer them. And I have another:

Why do you think we have single sex facilities in the first place? Why not just make everything, including prisons, mixed sex?

[quote turnitonagain]@OldCrone ok so let’s say male sex offenders identify as female and go into female prisons in large numbers. What happens then? They rape all the female inmates with no punishment? There’s no public or media outcry? There’s no inquest or investigation? Which would lead to a change in policy?

You act like you’re living in a rape-based dictatorship.[/quote]
It did happen in the U.K. and has resulted in those identifying as trans women to be returned to male prisons. Does anyone have a share token?www.thetimes.co.uk/article/seven-sex-attacks-in-womens-jails-by-transgender-convicts-cx9m8zqpg

Not so lucky for women in other parts of the world. Eg several states in the US or Canada, where people are in prison by gender, not sex. Or maybe closer to home in Ireland with Barbie Kardashian, who is legally female but hates and wants to kill women.

Ultimately all your logical arguments on this thread have hit the same point "why don't you want people with penises in places where women are vulnerable?" "we just don't". Which is fair enough isn't it? But it's the same thing imo - "why is it important? what does it mean?" are ultimately questions with no answer but that doesn't mean you've proved the other side wrong.

We need a very good reason to change the way our society, indeed all societies to my knowledge, have been organised for hundreds of years, if not since the dawn of time. The feelings of a small proportion of males should not cause a system which works best for most women to be thrown out.

If toilets, changing rooms etc are designated women’s spaces, they should be women’s spaces. Not spaces that also include a proportion of males who cannot logically be deemed women. I say ‘cannot logically be deemed women’ because there is no definition of woman, let alone a logical one, which includes all biological females and some biological males. Mixed sex facilities (in addition to single-sex ones) can accommodate males who identify as female.

[quote turnitonagain]@duckwit Most women are victims to men known to them, usually in their own families or in personal relationships.[/quote]
Unless they are in prison, then their rapist is another woman, previously unknown to them!

How many of those is too many? How many before you think it appropriate to make a new law - and who thought you'd ever need a law to say that a man shouldn't be housed in the female estate?

And again what about sports....?

[quote turnitonagain]@OldCrone ok so let’s say male sex offenders identify as female and go into female prisons in large numbers. What happens then? They rape all the female inmates with no punishment? There’s no public or media outcry? There’s no inquest or investigation? Which would lead to a change in policy?

You act like you’re living in a rape-based dictatorship.[/quote]
Why don't we just keep the men in the men's prisons? Why should the men be allowed to rape more women and only then be punished? What is the rationale for putting male bodied people in women's prisons?

Why make it easy for men to commit more crimes against women so that more women have to suffer? Have you never heard of prevention?

Since you can obviously see that there would be a problem, and you'd have to be incredibly blinkered not to, why make such a policy, which you can see would need to be changed once the inevitable happens? What's wrong with thinking about the possible consequences in the first place to make a sensible policy and avoid the suffering for more women, many of whom are already traumatised?

You act like you’re living in a rape-based dictatorship.

I think that's what a women's prison would feel like for the women there, if half the inmates were men with penises.

@turnitonagain
Daily fail link as proof transwomen in the U.K. continue to be housed in women’s prison despite the 7 sex attacks.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8303753/amp/Transgender-inmates-carried-seven-sex-attacks-women-jail.html

Are we still making it up?

I think that's what a women's prison would feel like for the women there, if half the inmates were men with penises

I think the poster was referring to thinking living in one in general, in society, not just prisons?
Could be wrong though

who argued black men are more prone to crime therefore police profiling policies is right. He had lots of evidence too. We have a word for people like that and it’s not “race critical.”

So this person said he had evidence that black men are more prone to crime. What's your point here? Was there something wrong with his evidence? What was his evidence? Or are you saying that he had no evidence but was saying it anyway? Had he misinterpreted his evidence? Or alternatively, if he did have evidence then it's not up for debate anyway? I'm genuinely interested here. As I am assuming that the word you have for him is 'racist'? I'm interested to learn why.

I need to add that there is no definition of woman which includes all women who recognise they are female and males who believe themselves to be a woman/female. Some females identifying as males doesn’t change the point I was trying to make.

[quote turnitonagain]@OldCrone ok so let’s say male sex offenders identify as female and go into female prisons in large numbers. What happens then? They rape all the female inmates with no punishment? There’s no public or media outcry? There’s no inquest or investigation? Which would lead to a change in policy?

You act like you’re living in a rape-based dictatorship.[/quote]
This is so muddled.

Do you agree with the concept of allowing rapists access to incarcerated women as part of their sentence?

And every time they rape one of the women, they get say another three years tacked on to the end of their sentence?, Get put back in the female prison. Do the same thing again.

Or do you think they shouldn't be incarcerated with vulnerable women in the first place?

And, is there any part of you, even a tiny part, that is thinking of the actual women in prison. Over 60% of whom will already have brain injuries due to domestic violence.

Should they, as part of their sentence, be housed with male rapists?

It's difficult to argue to women as a class that rapes and assaults only really ever happen from family members and people they know, so rape, sexual assault etc isn't something they should worry their little heads over or take precautions against.

When pretty much all women know to be careful where they walk, what precautions they take, what they wear at certain times and places, where they leave their drink, that they lock their car as soon as they get in it in a public car park especially after dusk, and very few of them do this because it's just some silly idea they've picked up on . I learned at the age of seven not to be alone where unfamiliar males were, because I was walking around in possession of biology they felt entitled to. Multiple minor sexual assaults and harassment incidents, a year spent living on a university campus where multiple rapes happened and the police spoke several times to all female students about precautions and restrictions to be safer - all of them stranger based assaults.

Unfortunately those who reel off this kind of trite and superficial dismissals usually speak from a position of naivety or privilege that they have never experienced this reality that so many female humans do. And for some reason do not feel the voices of female humans talking about it are worth listening to or believing. It's a very, very common problem female people have: as evidenced over and over on this thread, when female people say 'no' to male people it is often regarded either as silliness or misbehaviour on their part, or the opening point for a negotiation.

@Quaagars

I think that's what a women's prison would feel like for the women there, if half the inmates were men with penises

I think the poster was referring to thinking living in one in general, in society, not just prisons?
Could be wrong though

Is that all you’ve got to say when today there are women being abused and / or raped in a formerly single sex spaces around the world? Prison, toilet, hostel, changing room etc. The location is a question of semantics.