Kier shows his colours

[averylongtimeago]

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

[quote wanderingstar23]@Duckwit - it's not my job or responsibility to educate you, you're clearly capable of using the internet! And I don't really appreciate the hostile tone, there's no need for it.

Feminism, historically, is no stranger to exclusion - of working class women, of women of colour, etc. There are many good feminists who have no problem being trans inclusive without betraying their feminism so one option could be to seek these people out and find out what they have to say.[/quote]
Duckwit has asked one of the 'trans inclusive feminists' to find out what they have to say. And have been told there is nothing to say as they do not need to 'educate' her?! Where do we go from here..

How are you being shushed when both "sides" are talking?

@VulvaPerson - I am very very aware of the debate and the entrenched positions but as you say, trans rights don't have to conflict with women's rights - so why can that not be the starting point?

there is diversity of opinion amongst LGBT+ people

You have definitely hit on something there then. Whodathunkit.

seek these people out and find out what they have to say.

Yes, we did.

@Escapeplanning - thanks for your sarcasm. Unfortunately what is needed to find a solution to this issue isn't sarcasm and hostility, it's compassion and good faith and a commitment to trying to find ways to coexist.

[quote wanderingstar23]@Duckwit - it's not my job or responsibility to educate you, you're clearly capable of using the internet! And I don't really appreciate the hostile tone, there's no need for it.

Feminism, historically, is no stranger to exclusion - of working class women, of women of colour, etc. There are many good feminists who have no problem being trans inclusive without betraying their feminism so one option could be to seek these people out and find out what they have to say.[/quote]
And the difference between feminism being insensitive to say working class female issues and wanting the exclude transwoman issues ....go on it's easy to work out why one should be fixed if feminism is to be true to itself and the other is irrelevant

Why should I, a female born person, who has suffered as a direct result of my sex, be excluded from feminism to make way for transwomen

Yes excluded, because I am not feeling like I belong in a space that suggests somehow I am a woman because of my mind not my body.

[quote wanderingstar23]@Escapeplanning - thanks for your sarcasm. Unfortunately what is needed to find a solution to this issue isn't sarcasm and hostility, it's compassion and good faith and a commitment to trying to find ways to coexist.[/quote]
Oh, blimey. You are in the wrong place for a pulpit. try a church.

@Escapeplanning - so you've sat down with feminists of colour here in the UK who have no problem with an inclusive, expansive feminism? You've sat down with African feminists who have the same approach and understand the struggles of women and trans people on their continent? You've spoken to other groups of people who have historically felt excluded from feminism and found out how they have managed to show compassion and inclusivity? Please share I would love to hear more.

[quote wanderingstar23]@VulvaPerson - I am very very aware of the debate and the entrenched positions but as you say, trans rights don't have to conflict with women's rights - so why can that not be the starting point?[/quote]
Happy with that being the 'starting point' However, unfortunately thats not quite how its happening. Any any attempt to start from there, is written off as bigotry!

[quote wanderingstar23]@VulvaPerson - I am very very aware of the debate and the entrenched positions but as you say, trans rights don't have to conflict with women's rights - so why can that not be the starting point?[/quote]
they don't have to but they seem to.

Women have a legal right to single sex spaces that exclude males (and we don't want to give that up). Is that a good starting point?

What's the next step?

@Escapeplanning you may be spoiling for a scrap but I'm really not.

@12frogsincoats

Keir shows his true colours by showing basic respect towards trans people. What a bloody misogynist!

In that Twitter video Keir has linked to, Angela Rayner talks about 'we must reform the GRA'.

What she actually means here, is that the law should change so that any man can legally falsify his birth certificate and get it changed so that it says 'female' without any gatekeeping whatsoever. No one else is allowed to do this.

This would give that man a Gender Recognition Certificate and make that man a woman in the eyes of the law, and would make it much, much more difficult for women to keep their spaces single sex, as a culture of self id would make it more difficult to challenge males in female spaces. Also, given what we know about the lengths that men go to gain access to vulnerable people, it is highly likely that a law which allows any man to legally become a woman with no checks at all, will be exploited by certain people.

Whatsmore... At the moment there are single sex exemptions in the Equality Act which mean that even males with a GRC may be denied access to certain women's spaces in certain circumstances. However, Stonewall, that bastion of equality and kindness, is currently campaigning for those exemptions to be abolished, which would mean a total end to female single sex spaces or females being able to request another female for an intimate procedure etc. They have it as one of their campaign points on their website.

So yes, I absolutely believe that trans people deserve respect. But hows about a little bit of respect for women and their boundaries as well eh?

I can think of far better use of everyone's mental and emotional energy than engaging with your supercilious preaching.

@Duckwit - it's not my job or responsibility to educate you, you're clearly capable of using the internet!

I was being sarcastic, I have read the arguments. All of them. Many times.

And I still don't believe for a second that the demands that TRAs are making for the abolition of single sex spaces/facilities and for any bloke being legally recognised as a woman with zero gatekeeping can co-exist with women's rights.

@VulvaPerson @gardenbird48 and all the rest - I'm not sure if this is a place for genuine debate or an echo chamber where those who don't instantly fall into line are chased off the premises? I understand the anger, but I would genuinely like to have an open debate about all of this stuff. I think that the worst thing that can happen here is stifling freedom of expression and I completely abhor the cancelling that has gone on as I think it's probably just adding to entrenched positions

I would genuinely like to have an open debate about all of this stuff

But... you were invited to make your argument and you responded with "It's not my job to educate you!"

I don't actually believe that anyone should have the right to legally falsify their birth certificate so that it says something on there that is objectively untrue, so in that respect trans people already have 'more rights' than the rest of the population.

However the GRA was brought in to help a very small minority people with gender dysphoria who felt that they wanted to be legally recognised as the opposite sex and were willing to go through the long process needed to do that. I think there are still only 5000 GRCs ever issued since 2004? So I am happy to keep the status quo.

'GRA Reform' is one of those things that sounds really progressive, but you don't have to scratch the surface very deep to see what it actually means.

I have never 'chased anyone off the premises'. Though I guess if you take people posting opposing views as being chased off, thats quite possible? I mean, this forum USED to be like..90% be kind and 10% (if that) GC, yet the GC people didn't feel 'chased off' because of most disagreeing with them. Not sure how thats any different from the other way round really.

@Duckwit - that's precisely my point. You've all been so hostile and sarcastic, and think you've "read all the arguments" and therefore made so many assumptions about where I'm coming from.

@nauticant

Indeed VulvaPerson:

www.stonewall.org.uk/truth-about-trans#trans-people-britain

The best estimate at the moment is that around 1 per cent of the population might identify as trans, including people who identify as non-binary. That would mean about 600,000 trans and non-binary people in Britain, out of a population of over 60 million.

It is frustrating that when the argument is that there are lots of trans people in the UK, trans activists will use the 1% figure but when the argument needs there to be relatively few trans people in the UK, the figure then turns into 0.3%.

The 1% figure includes non binary people and trans men as well as those who experience some degree of gender variance. It's based on the GIRES estimate:

The adults who present emerge from a large reservoir of transgender people, who experience some degree of gender variance. They may number 300,000, a prevalence of 600 per 100,000, of whom 80% were assigned as boys at birth. However, the number would be nearly 500,000, if the gender balance among transgender people is equal.

Most of those murdered have been transitioned trans women (whether socially or medically). It's difficult to ascertain exactly how many had medically transitioned although media reports suggest at least two had, and I suspect a couple more from the way they look. According to GIRES trans women who have started or completed medical transition represent 0.02% of the population (that was in 2014, its probably a bit more than that now). If medically transitioned trans women were murdered at the same rate as other women you would therefore only expect one of them to be murdered about once every 20 years.

@VulvaPerson and now all the "be kind" people have evidently left!

I'm not sure if this is a place for genuine debate or an echo chamber where those who don't instantly fall into line are chased off the premises

It's a place for genuine debate.

So on that note...

What is your view on allowing any man to become legally recognised as a woman, and therefore have much easier access to women's spaces, without any gatekeeping. Just on his own 'self identification'?

Do you agree with Stonewall that single sex exemptions in the Equality Act should be removed?

[quote wanderingstar23]@VulvaPerson and now all the "be kind" people have evidently left![/quote]
Not really. They just see how 'be kind' is not really compatible with fighting for womens rights. They aren't any..less kind on the whole. Just have changed their viewpoint on this one topic. Still though, majority disagreeing certainly did not 'chase off' people then, so not sure why it would now.

I’m late to this thread and no idea where to weigh in, but I just particularly wanted to give a fist bump to michelleofzeresistance for some really great posts back up there ^^ in the mists somewhere