Kier shows his colours

[averylongtimeago]

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

@Duckwit

Ignore any evidence of criminality. Repeat oppressed. Use masculine women and intersex people as gochas. Also rare passing transwomen. Pretend the demands trans orgs make are nothing but fringe views. Rubbish ANY news reports that show some of the problems. Rinse, repeat. Use bigot a lot. Use 'experiences', but refuse to accept womens experiences. Compare women to MRAs. Accuse them of being racist, homophobic, insert other phobia.

Don't forget insisting that it is ludicrous to suggest that women's rights clash with trans rights, whilst also having 'abolishing single sex exemptions in the Equality Act' as one of your campaign points on your website (Stonewall!)

Indeed.

But no, thats fringe and absolutely not true. There is no clash of rights.

Honestly, there shouldn't be and there are ways that it would not happen, where rights do not override each ohers. But such 'fringe demands' as they stand at present, absolutely steamroller over womens existing sex based rights. Its ludicrous to claim they don't

it is not helpful to the mental health of trans people to perpetuate the idea that they are at risk of violence if they even step outside the house. It is not true.

Would you say the same thing to someone trying to raise awareness about violence against non trans women?

I know at least one trans woman who is scared to leave the house due to constant violence and harassment from transphobic neighbours. That's not very good for trans people's mental health either.

@Aesopfable

There have been 12 transpeople murdered in the UK over the last 10 years. but not because they were trans. Amongst the reasons were drug debt and sex work. All were murdered by men, one of the men was a transwoman.

And there we go, they were asking for it.

A lot of women who get murdered are sex workers or have drug problems you know.

Don't forget insisting that it is ludicrous to suggest that women's rights clash with trans rights, whilst also having 'abolishing single sex exemptions in the Equality Act' as one of your campaign points on your website

And also trying to remove political representation of any women who are aware of this apparently non existent clash (Ireland).

There have been 12 transpeople murdered in the UK over the last 10 years. but not because they were trans. Amongst the reasons were drug debt and sex work.*

You've just written off 12 trans people being murdered there for their actions instead.
Drugs or sex workers.
Women (becunted kind) are killed who are sex workers and take drugs too.
Would you turn round and say it's because they took drugs or were selling sex, nothing to do with being a woman?

Bold failed there, top two lines was quoting

And there we go, they were asking for it.

Acknowledging that people are killed in higher numbers if involved in the sex/drug trade is absolutely NOT saying 'they asked for it'. Violence against women in the sex trade is a massive massive problem, that feminists have long been quite focused on from my experience. Unfortunately, many activists prefer to shame feminists for caring about this matter by designating them 'swerfs'. More nonsense really. But usual.

Would you say the same thing to someone trying to raise awareness about violence against non trans women?

If a person was trying to raise awareness of violence against Women by suggesting they are at risk whenever they leave the house I think they would get the same response. Firstly because so much of the violence occurs in the home.

Secondly because when such campaigns were put out in the past by the Police, they were rightly criticised as putting Women at greater risk.

Indeed VulvaPerson:

www.stonewall.org.uk/truth-about-trans#trans-people-britain

The best estimate at the moment is that around 1 per cent of the population might identify as trans, including people who identify as non-binary. That would mean about 600,000 trans and non-binary people in Britain, out of a population of over 60 million.

It is frustrating that when the argument is that there are lots of trans people in the UK, trans activists will use the 1% figure but when the argument needs there to be relatively few trans people in the UK, the figure then turns into 0.3%.

We are constantly being told that trans people are being murdered purely because they are trans and that sole factor exponentially raises the risk factor of being murdered, that is not proven by the statistics and analysis.

I've just had a quick glance at transcrimeuk and found this.

Convictions/charged so far for 2020 of trans identified individuals - violent or sexual crimes = 23 inc. murder and rape.

I counted 48 convictions for rape/sexual assult (can't face looking too closely for the timeframe but most seem fairly recent.

8 convictions for voyeurism (some are repeat convictions so it is hard to give a proper timeframe)

I didn't want to click on the bestiality convictions tab.

It is not clear exactly where these crimes took place - some of them were definitely in women's single sex spaces.

As a society we should be attempting to prevent any of them happening again, not legislating to make it even easier.

I wonder why the activists have worked so hard to try and prevent this information from being published by the mainstream media so the general public can see it? Most of the crimes committed by transwomen are being recorded as committed by females. Why are the authorities lying to us?

I wonder why jj is so intent on minimising and belittling and accusing us of lying?

Which of the above crimes didn't happen jj? Or doesn't matter because it was some creepy oddball from Canada? Why shouldn't we show pictures of Karen White - he got himself into a women's prison and raped a woman so badly she has been damaged for life? Is that ok - should we not speak out about that? What if that woman was a friend of yours?? or your sister or daughter. We all are those things jj .

I looked again at the study you mention and can't see what you mean about 4 crimes. The study (Swedish study + Ministry of Justice foi requests) shows that transwomen have the same offending rate as males but have worse rates of violent and sexual crimes. here you go.

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/

Of course trans rights are human rights. Who would ever argue they aren't?

Just because some people - including of course many on this board - believe that trans rights are in some way in conflict with women's rights, doesn't mean that trans rights are not human rights.

Human rights theory and practice is full of issues where different rights, and the rights of different groups, potentially come into conflict, it's not new.

There are many ways to conceptualise a happy coexistence of trans rights and women's rights, a far better use of everyone's mental and emotional energy than adding more fuel to a toxic scrap between women and queer people.

Are we into masked man fallacies here or is this a good old plain red herring? Seeing a lot of use of the courtier's appeal fallacy too.

It makes having any meaningful debate fairly impossible. Which is a shame.

@nauticant - you surely aren't arguing that small numbers of people means that an issue matters less? Human rights is in many ways about protecting the minority from the majority.

The responsibility for not getting raped/assaulted/murdered is almost always put on women themselves - don't get drunk, don't wear revealing clothing, don't choose unsuitable men, don't walk anywhere alone blah blah blah.

That's what 'raising awareness of violence against women' very often means.

There are many ways to conceptualise a happy coexistence of trans rights and women's rights, a far better use of everyone's mental and emotional energy than adding more fuel to a toxic scrap between women and queer people.

Come on then, educate us!

No wanderingstar23, I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that if you adjust the numbers so that the total number of trans people in the UK is smaller, that means that it looks like the risk of harm faced by trans people is higher. In other words, you spread more fear among trans people which naturally is an unhelpful thing to do.

Just because some people - including of course many on this board - believe that trans rights are in some way in conflict with women's rights, doesn't mean that trans rights are not human rights.

Trans rights don't have to conflict with womens rights. Unfortunately, whats currently being demanded, does conflict with womens rights. There are many ways to help transpeople that do NOT trample over womens hard fought for rights, but that seems to not be the way trans orgs/activists want to go.

more fuel to a toxic scrap between women and queer people

No, that's false terming of the two 'sides' of this debate. Many of the women protesting the assault on their rights are LGBT+.

Keir shows his true colours by showing basic respect towards trans people. What a bloody misogynist!

@Duckwit - it's not my job or responsibility to educate you, you're clearly capable of using the internet! And I don't really appreciate the hostile tone, there's no need for it.

Feminism, historically, is no stranger to exclusion - of working class women, of women of colour, etc. There are many good feminists who have no problem being trans inclusive without betraying their feminism so one option could be to seek these people out and find out what they have to say.

@MichelleofzeResistance - stop press, there is diversity of opinion amongst LGBT+ people? And what is your point meant to demonstrate?

So just drive by shushing then?

Are we into masked man fallacies here?

That's a new one on me. I looked it up but can't relate it to the thread so now I'm curious what you mean!

@Escapeplanning

So just drive by shushing then?

Drive by woke scolding.

Was said on here a while back and stuck. I like it.