Kier shows his colours

[averylongtimeago]

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

I'm sure many of you here would argue that trans misogyny does not exist.

Well I would because 'misogyny' specifically relates to a hatred of Women, that's the derivation of the word.

There should be a word that relates to a similar aversion to trans people unfortunately the existing one 'Transphobia' has been so misused as to render it meaningless.

[quote wanderingstar23]**@VulvaPerson* @gardenbird48* and all the rest - I'm not sure if this is a place for genuine debate or an echo chamber where those who don't instantly fall into line are chased off the premises? I understand the anger, but I would genuinely like to have an open debate about all of this stuff. I think that the worst thing that can happen here is stifling freedom of expression and I completely abhor the cancelling that has gone on as I think it's probably just adding to entrenched positions[/quote]
I haven't chased anyone anywhere. And I'm always open for debate. I did ask for your thoughts just now - maybe you missed it?

My position is that I want to protect single sex spaces and provisions for women - what's yours? Genuine question.

I will be cooking dinner in between times though.

Jj still won't accept that the murder rate for transwomen in the states is driven by the fact that they transwomen in the states tend t9 end up in prostitution. And it's the prostitution not the transwomen status that leads to the murder, with murder rates of female prostitutes similarly high. Jj insists on comparing apples with all tree grown fruits

Most of those murdered have been transitioned trans women (whether socially or medically)... trans women who have started or completed medical transition represent 0.02%

That thunderclap noise you just heard was goalposts breaking the sound barrier.

Also I think jj is getting statistics from this report www.gires.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/GenderVarianceUK-report.pdf

which has 2014 in the URL but is actually from 2009.

(Furthermore the low prevalence jj cites appears to relate specifically to transwomen who get genital surgery, and genital surgery has nothing to do with anything, but whatever, it's 'ridiculous to use 2009 statistics here.)

Open letter to Keir Starmer here from the Labour Women's Declaration. It refers specifically to the video that KS and Labour Party tweeted on Trans Remembrance Day (featuring Angela Rayner) and picks up a lot of the points raised in this thread. Apologies if it's already been linked and I've missed it:

https://labourwomensdeclaration.org.uk/news/open-letter-to-sir-keir-starmer-mp/

I wonder how many of the people that come on here telling us how we're maybe doing feminism all wrong 'cause some other women don't agree with us and we just need to show some compassion, do the same on trans forums? Do they go on there lecturing them to show some compassion and understanding?

From what I've seen, they're 'echo chambers' also, anyone with a differing opinion isn't engaged with unless it's to be threatened, and then you're permanently banned. On reddit some posters were even stalked across the site, and banned from subreddit communities completely unrelated to the trans issues and women's rights.

Groups set up to look out for the interests of women are branded 'hate groups'. Groups who want to focus purely on the rights of LGB people are 'hate groups'. Women who want to talk about the clash of rights are 'transphobic, right wing bigots' who don't deserve any representation anymore. How are we supposed to start a conversation when groups set up to represent us are shut down as hate groups in an attempt to discredit them? To make everyone distance themselves from them?

trans rights don't have to conflict with women's rights

Try saying that to a transactivist. Try it. I won't post the full responses I got when I did, but they involved what they would like to see happen to my children (non existent children).

@gardenbird48

It is not clear exactly where these crimes took place - some of them were definitely in women's single sex spaces.

Another lie. Not one of the crimes listed was committed in a single sex space.

Convictions/charged so far for 2020 of trans identified individuals - violent or sexual crimes = 23 inc. murder and rape.

And another lie. Four of the crimes listed did not involve violence. But more importantly, of those convicted of murder or a sexual offence only 5 identified as trans women. The rest were all men who reportedly crossdressed, who were tried as men in the courts.

Of those who identified as trans, one was a prisoner, currently on trial for murdering a fellow prisoner and notorious paedophile who has aaid they suffer from gender dysphoria, although they are being tried as a man. Two were convicted of possession of images of child sexual abuse and two for breaches of a sexual harm prevention order.

So if transcrime are correct not one single person who actually identifies as a trans woman was convicted of rape, or sexual assault, in 2020.

I wonder how many of the people that come on here telling us how we're maybe doing feminism all wrong 'cause some other women don't agree with us and we just need to show some compassion, do the same on trans forums? Do they go on there lecturing them to show some compassion and understanding?

Good point.

Thanks for posting that Floisme.

I've read the account of the meeting linked. Can it get any worse? I'm going to send to my CLP.

From that open letter:

The homicide and femicide rates in Brazil, and in particular of women and trans people driven into prostitution through poverty, are appalling and of course each victim deserves remembrance, but by presenting those figures as if they were UK based you do further disservice to those very real issues, and expose an alarming level of ignorance about them.

This is very true. The appropriation of the plight of sex workers in South America by TRAs in the UK, does take away from what is a very real problem in those countries.

Munroe Bergdorf often rolls out the 'as a trans person of colour, statistically my life expectancy is 35' line because Munroe knows that that will make people go and that's all Munroe needs.

They don't actually ever really draw attention to what is a pretty big problem in other countries because they are too busy making it about them and appropriating issues that are not theirs.

Yes that meeting sounded particularly grim - recommended reading for all posters but especially those saying all that's needed is 'genuine debate'.

But more importantly, of those convicted of murder or a sexual offence only 5 identified as trans women. The rest were all men who reportedly crossdressed, who were tried as men in the courts.

But jj, crossdressers are trans according to Stonewall.

[quote jj1968]@gardenbird48

It is not clear exactly where these crimes took place - some of them were definitely in women's single sex spaces.

Another lie. Not one of the crimes listed was committed in a single sex space.

Convictions/charged so far for 2020 of trans identified individuals - violent or sexual crimes = 23 inc. murder and rape.

And another lie. Four of the crimes listed did not involve violence. But more importantly, of those convicted of murder or a sexual offence only 5 identified as trans women. The rest were all men who reportedly crossdressed, who were tried as men in the courts.

Of those who identified as trans, one was a prisoner, currently on trial for murdering a fellow prisoner and notorious paedophile who has aaid they suffer from gender dysphoria, although they are being tried as a man. Two were convicted of possession of images of child sexual abuse and two for breaches of a sexual harm prevention order.

So if transcrime are correct not one single person who actually identifies as a trans woman was convicted of rape, or sexual assault, in 2020.[/quote]
Oh, that's alright then! Murder, images of child sexual abuse and breaches of sexual harm prevention orders. Thank goodness its nothing bad!

Plus, I thought cross dressing came under the Stonewall 'Trans umbrella'? Is the only difference between a 'transwoman' and a 'cross dresser' the male's declaration?

So if transcrime are correct not one single person who actually identifies as a trans woman was convicted of rape, or sexual assault, in 2020.

Incidentally, if trans women really did represent 1% of the population as is being claimed, and trans women committed crimes at the same rate as men, as is also being claimed, you would expect around 15 trans women to have been be convicted of rape last year. None were. You would also expect there to be around 750 trans women in prison, as opposed to about 150, including trans men.

[quote Floisme]Open letter to Keir Starmer here from the Labour Women's Declaration. It refers specifically to the video that KS and Labour Party tweeted on Trans Remembrance Day (featuring Angela Rayner) and picks up a lot of the points raised in this thread. Apologies if it's already been linked and I've missed it:

[[https://labourwomensdeclaration.org.uk/news/open-letter-to-sir-keir-starmer-mp/]][/quote]
That's an excellent and powerful letter Floisme

it's compassion and good faith and a commitment to trying to find ways to coexist.

Great. You start.

When you've got Stonewall and Twitter et al with compassion for females and their feelings and needs, good faith (you know, like not meeting for quiet cups of tea to change laws out of sight without democracy) and a commitment to find ways to coexist with women without removing their legal rights you come right back here. I suspect FWR, FPFW, WFScot et al will be much easier to get on board and you'll get reasoned, polite debate as opposed to people threatening your children.

Women didn't start it. It is not women's job to sort out. Women have done a damn sight more in trying to debate and negotiate than the lobby has. Values are a two way thing and need to be shown in actions or they're just empty words.

@MichelleofzeResistance - stop press, there is diversity of opinion amongst LGBT+ people? And what is your point meant to demonstrate?

That would be the point I quoted in the post:

more fuel to a toxic scrap between women and queer people

The meaning of this sentence would show that there are two sides to this 'toxic scrap', one side being posited as women and the other side as 'queer people'.

Hence my pointing out that many women standing up to this assault on their rights are LGBT+ people and so it is false to state this as being a case of women against LGBT+. Does this help?

Jj

What you are saying seems to b inconsistent with the data here

transcrimeuk.com/2020-convictions/

All those asking, 'Why can't everyone just sit down and talk?' Why indeed?

https://womansplaceuk.org/2020/11/22/erasing-and-silencing-women-in-the-name-of-inclusion/amp/?twitterimpression=true

@OldCrone

But more importantly, of those convicted of murder or a sexual offence only 5 identified as trans women. The rest were all men who reportedly crossdressed, who were tried as men in the courts.

But jj, crossdressers are trans according to Stonewall.

Firstly, I don't give a shit what Stonewall say. Most trans people couldn't care less about them, it's gender critical people who are obsessed with them.

And even according to Stonewall, cross dressers are not trans women, they are people under the trans umbrella. Occassional cross dressers and are very unlikely to use women's toilets or changing rooms. They are men, and they are happy being men. They are not trans women. So feign disingenuous confusion all you like about how on earth can you possibly tell the difference between a man who occassionally puts on his wife's knickers and a trans women, who lives and presents in a female role all the time, but I think for most practical purposes the vast majority of people are easily able to make the distinction.

No sorry I disagree that it's easy to tell the different ?types? Of transpeople apart

It's as difficult a problem as telling good men from bad. We can't tell by looking, we can't tell by talking to people, we can only judge on behaviour. And wanting access to the spaces reserved for the opposite sex is not a good , trust inspiring behaviour

Occassional cross dressers and are very unlikely to use women's toilets or changing rooms. They are men, and they are happy being men. They are not trans women.

Um what? I think you'll find that on the days Phillip/Pip Bunce dresses as a woman they do use the women's toilets, hell they even managed to get a Business Woman of they Year accolade on the back of only occasionally dressing as a woman, it's all about the gender identity on those days, as you keep telling us.

Furthermore the push for self-id specifically states that anyone is who they say they are, no need for any changes whatsoever, either in dress or physically. We all just have to accept that they are what they say they are irrespective because it all about that elusive, undefined gender identity.

Well for a start

Occasional...how do I tell if it's occasional or regular? Apart from stalking someone ?

What are the hints that I should look out for ?

@midgebabe

Jj

What you are saying seems to b inconsistent with the data here

transcrimeuk.com/2020-convictions/

It's not inconsistent. Not one of the cross dressing men on that page convicted of rape or sexual assault identified as a trans woman. Assuming transcrime are correct nobody who identifies as a trans woman was convicted of rape or sexual assault in 2020.