Kier shows his colours

[averylongtimeago]

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

@MichelleofzeResistance

If a group of feminists decided to organise a day of rememberence for murdered women

This has been done for some years by the wonderful Jean Hatchett, who despite her struggle with cancer has continued her bike rides for murdered British women, centering one woman killed by a domestic partner per ride, which is often a great distance.

Was this celebrated and supported by the trans lobby?

No. Jean was asked by the trans lobby to change her focus to including and centering murdered TW. When Jean said no, her specific focus was the remembering of British females who were DA victims, she became the focus of a campaign to harass and discredit her, and to make her out to be somehow an enemy of the lobby.

This kind of action doesn't do much for gaining reciprocal good will. Respect is a two way thing.

Quite.

Respect is a two way thing.

Well yes, but its expected from women constantly. Not given to them though. Feminists should instead focus on solving everyone elses problems, womens stuff can wait, other things are more important!

@Kantastic

I don't get this point. Just because, according to you, "it's a myth" and so no point acknowledging it in the UK, then it should be ignored? Not marked or commented on?

This is madness. Yes, it is bad to propagate lies. In this case, it is a lie that trans women are especially likely to be victims of violence. That isn't just a lie, it's a very harmful lie. If you find that confusing there is something wrong with your moral compass.

Who's lying, it's well known that this is an international day.

Every piece of research that has ever been carried out, both in the UK and overseas, has revealed trans women are as likely or more likely to be victims of both sexual and physical violence as other women. The figures in the UK show that trans women are murdered at pretty much the same rate as other women. Does this mean women are lying when they talk about being victims of violence, because women are less likely to be murdered than men?

It's curious how often when discussing this I've noticed the arguments from the gender critical side often mirror almost exactly the same arguments that misogynist men use to undermine the reality of violence against women. Trans women are making it up, or probably making a fuss about nothing, or are all sex workers and have it coming, and any statistics and reports can't be trusted because of some kind of politically correct agenda. I'm sure many of you here would argue that trans misogyny does not exist. And yet ...

Feminists saying 'but no, we focus on women' is also hateful. Yet apparently, its feminists who are 'all lives mattering' its really quite bizarre. Reversal of reality. Name me one other group who is expected to ignore the group they are meant to focus on, and solve everyone elses problems first, who are named hateful for centreing the group they focus on? BLM, hateful for not focusing on ALL lives, and specifically lives of white people killed by postmen. Save the whales, hateful for not caring about the lvies of Leopards. And so on. Its bloody ridiculous. Yet constantly thrown at feminists.

Does this mean women are lying when they talk about being victims of violence, because women are less likely to be murdered than men

Exactly, how is it any different to not believing women (the becunted kind as so charmingly referred to upthread) when assaulted?

It's curious how often when discussing this I've noticed the arguments from the gender critical side often mirror almost exactly the same arguments that misogynist men use to undermine the reality of violence against women.
Agree, the language and the minimising and the didn't happen etc sounds exactly the same

I saw a proposal on Twitter that I thought was a good way forward: Next trans day of remembrance, someone in the House of. Commons should read out the names of all trans people murdered in the UK during the previous year.
Respectful and also factual.

Okay Q, I'm glad you've agreed with me that trans women are not especially likely to be victims of violence.

Do you see how propagating the myth that they are more likely than other people to be victims is harmful and damaging? (And I have to point out, while there is no disparity in the rates at which trans women are victims of violence compared to women, there is a massive disparity in the rates at which transwomen perpetrate violence, compared to women. You need that context to interpret the statistics.)

The mythology is harmful to transwomen, and it is harmful to groups which ARE disproportionately victims of male violence.

I don't doubt transwomen face abuse at high levels from men. Like women do. I do think a lot of it comes from a different POV though, but why it happens is not really important, the fact that it happens is the problem of course.

Where I differ from TRAs though, is that I think this is not feminists issue to solve. Similar to how male violence against gay men, is not feminists issue to solve, though we would of course like for it to end, our focus is on WOMEN. Simple as. That might sound harsh, to someone whos focus is transwomen. But, their focus is transwomen, and thats not hateful apparently, but women focusing on women is horrid and bigoted and similar to white supremacy or something? I also find it quite disgusting actually, that some think the fact that transwomen suffer violence, is what makes them women. Not necessarily on this thread, but I have seen, when asked how TWAW 'they suffer abuse from men like women do, so they are women' Women are not defined by the actions of men. Nor should they be.

Oh sorry that was jj agreeing with me that transwomen are not espeically likely to be victims of violence, not Q.

I also find it quite disgusting actually, that some think the fact that transwomen suffer violence, is what makes them women. Not necessarily on this thread

Was going to say, that definitely hasn't been said anywhere on the thread.
Not seen it anywhere on MN actually, obviously doesn't mean can't have been said elsewhere.

@Floisme

I saw a proposal on Twitter that I thought was a good way forward: Next trans day of remembrance, someone in the House of. Commons should read out the names of all trans people murdered in the UK during the previous year. Respectful and also factual.

I dont see why it should be only transpeople murdered in the UK. It could be suicides of trans people, and theres no reason to make it UK only anyway?

I don't really see the issue with the remembrance day thing. Where I do see issues creeping in, is when certain people make out there is some huge epidemic of transpeople being murdered in the UK and use the rememberence day to shore up that lie. 'Transpeople need so many days because they are killed at high rates' and such. Its nonsense. And its also scaring transpeople into thinking they are hugely in danger, which..well who benefits there, really? It must be terrifying to think you are in such danger of being murdered all the time, while also told if you do not attempt suicide then you are not like other transpeople. Its a recipe for disaster,. and I do wonder who benefits from this. People who parrot that stuff certainly do not care about transpeople, so where are they really coming from?

@Quaagars

I also find it quite disgusting actually, that some think the fact that transwomen suffer violence, is what makes them women. Not necessarily on this thread

Was going to say, that definitely hasn't been said anywhere on the thread.
Not seen it anywhere on MN actually, obviously doesn't mean can't have been said elsewhere.

Have seen similar on MN. Was just a personal bugbear of mine. Not a reply to anything on this thread, but related to the rest of my post.

I'm sure many of you here would argue that trans misogyny does not exist.

I have noticed this recent use of 'trans misogyny' as a phrase to replace 'transphobia'. Women aren't even allowed to have the word 'misogyny' apply to just women now, is there anything that you aren't going to try and take from us?!

No, I would never deny that transwomen suffer abuse and physical harm. I know that that happens That abuse and harm (presuming we are not including stuff like 'transwomen are not women' in 'abuse') comes almost exclusively from men though, so go and take it up with them, it's not the job of feminists to solve that.

I dont see why it should be only transpeople murdered in the UK. It could be suicides of trans people, and theres no reason to make it UK only anyway?
Why not only in the UK? I believe when Jess Phillips reads out the names of women murdered by loved ones the stats only refer to the UK.

The figures in the UK show that trans women are murdered at pretty much the same rate as other women.

No they don't, why do you continue to peddle these lies?

There have been 12 transpeople murdered in the UK over the last 10 years. None in Scotland and non in Northern Ireland.

Two women a week are murdered in the UK

12 Transpeople over 10 years and 2 women a week does NOT add up to pretty much the same rate does it?

@Floisme

I dont see why it should be only transpeople murdered in the UK. It could be suicides of trans people, and theres no reason to make it UK only anyway? Why not only in the UK? I believe when Jess Phillips reads out the names of women murdered by loved ones the stats only refer to the UK.

Well no reason particularly why not, but no reason why either.

Its a good thing that transpeople seem to be a fairly safe demographic in this country to me. Why some activists seem to want to bury this fact, and instead pretend there is a murder epidemic, is totally beyond me.

12 Transpeople over 10 years and 2 women a week does NOT add up to pretty much the same rate does it?

If you use some random percentage for transpeople though..

Rather than the fairly well accepted by most trans orgs seemingly, 1% of people.

jj

Why does that even matter

We don't need a reason to say no to males . Its just no.

@Whatwouldscullydo

jj

Why does that even matter

We don't need a reason to say no to males . Its just no.

I second that, it's just no.

Focus on criminality, no matter how rare, keep showing photos of Karen Whites face, question any report or study as agenda laden and even further proof of the duplicity of trans people, present fringe demands and positions as mainstream trans ideology.

Interesting.

Ignore any evidence of criminality. Repeat oppressed. Use masculine women and intersex people as gochas. Also rare passing transwomen. Pretend the demands trans orgs make are nothing but fringe views. Rubbish ANY news reports that show some of the problems. Rinse, repeat. Use bigot a lot. Use 'experiences', but refuse to accept womens experiences. Compare women to MRAs. Accuse them of being racist, homophobic, insert other phobia.

TRA handbook.

If TRA demands really were fringe views, we wouldn't be having problems really. But self ID is a widespread demand from activists, not just a fringe view. I agree that MANY actual transpeople are against self ID and also see the problems. But, that doesn't change the fact that it is absolutely not a fringe view. It should be, as its nonsense and the problems are blatant to anyone who thinks for a few seconds, but its not. Its been snuck in under various guises in some countries, and then its claimed there are no issues, and any proof of issues is dismissed for various reasons, and the fact that issues are hard to track when issues are put down to 'female on female' and added to female crime stats is also ignored. Recurring problems (ie prisons) are written off as 'failure of procedure' rather than logical endpoint of a system tyhat accepts self ID. Irts claimed noone would ever pretend to be trans, despite proof of this happening, in the form of how many sex offenders SAY they are trans. I refuse to believe sex offenses are more prevalent in transpeople, so my conclusion is that there are a lot of men pretending. And why wouldn't they?! The flat out refusal to see this happens, and will continue happening, and will also likely get worse, is where the disconnect is I think. Its absolutely barmy to pretend it won't happen, when its happened multiple times. But that seems to be the way to go for 'trans activists'. Many of whom, seem to not care one bit about actual transpeople, as they will distort stats to pretend they are high risk when they aren't, block studies into trans medicine, and so on. I really really want to know who benefits from such actions. As its not transpeople. Anecdotally, the transpeople I know disagree vehemently with TRAs on most topics (seemingly besides childhood transition, which a few are for but they are obviously coming from 'I would have loved that') but to dismiss TRA views as fringe is a huge lie.

jj1968

Can you remind us all again, as I must have missed it before now, the objective and unarguable point at which males who identify as women come out of the 'high risk' class of male and into the 'low risk' class of female? The point upon which robust laws can be made?

Oh yeah I forgot VulvaPerson the numbers and are moved up and down randomly as required.

The only one posting misinformation is you jj, you are a past master at dismissing any and all evidence you don't like and then changing numbers as required to suit your view and always bring the USA into any argument.

You reference 'oddballs' in Canada and Karen White and yet you are a staunch advocate for those people to be accepted into female only sex segregated spaces on the basis of their gender identity, and you don't care what the impact on women is by their inclusion.

Ignore any evidence of criminality. Repeat oppressed. Use masculine women and intersex people as gochas. Also rare passing transwomen. Pretend the demands trans orgs make are nothing but fringe views. Rubbish ANY news reports that show some of the problems. Rinse, repeat. Use bigot a lot. Use 'experiences', but refuse to accept womens experiences. Compare women to MRAs. Accuse them of being racist, homophobic, insert other phobia.

Don't forget insisting that it is ludicrous to suggest that women's rights clash with trans rights, whilst also having 'abolishing single sex exemptions in the Equality Act' as one of your campaign points on your website (Stonewall!)

it is not helpful to the mental health of trans people to perpetuate the idea that they are at risk of violence if they even step outside the house. It is not true.

This is how certain groups of a coercive nature with a strong ideology operate (don't want to get deleted) - they convince their members that somehow they are only safe if they are in the group, the outside world is a danger to them and they must only listen to 'the truth' spoken by the group.

The trans person I know feels that they are not safe to leave the house - I can't fathom why - they have a very (dare I say it) safe, 'middle class' life (can't use any details but I guess that sums it up).

Why is it kind to feed that delusion. They also think that 'their community' is dying at 'unbelievable rates'. That is not true - even in Brazil, arguably the worst place. The transwomen are murdered at a lower rate per head than any other group (Nauticant's super number crunching near the beginning of this rather repetitive thread).

I did mention that I thought it wrong to align the situation suffered by trans people across the world with the millions of people killed in war by using the term Remembrance Day. The only other Remembrance day in the UK is to remember the people who died in the wars for our freedom. Freedom to walk the streets and speak English and have basic human rights.

This movement seems intent on 1) appropriating that concept with absolutely no justification (I'll say again, anyone's death is wrong) and 2) actually trying to remove those freedoms fought for and secured for us by our family members years ago. I find that offensive. I also reject the accusation that the contributors on FWR are anti-trans - you know very well that is not true. I really don't want anyone to be suffering but I am watching senior politicians and Amnesty etc etc deliberately adding to the perception of persecution. Why would they do that to anyone?

This movement seems intent on creating a spiral of perception of injury - and the more they are criticised for their increasingly unreasonable demands, they more they cry persecution and claim further injury.

I don't expect to be speaking for the whole of Mumsnet here, as pp has pointed out, we are not an amorphous blob, any more than trans people are but I (currently) have a right to free speech, fought for by my grandparents. I don't hate anyone and I don't wish harm on anyone but I will protect the children from those that will do them harm.

There have been 12 transpeople murdered in the UK over the last 10 years. but not because they were trans. Amongst the reasons were drug debt and sex work. All were murdered by men, one of the men was a transwoman.