Kier shows his colours

[averylongtimeago]

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

Angela Raynor's bleeding heart string speech on this was incredibly cocercive in its use of emotive language.

"Deserve to be loved for their true selves..." etc.

"7 transgender hate crimes are being investigated in the U.K. right now..."

As misogyny isn't a hate crime we can't quantify how many victims there are there, but definitely more than 7 women have lost their lives to domestic abuse so far this year.

I'm with gardenbird48, I don't think it's desirable for party leaders to contribute to the spread of misinformation. Especially misinformation which has a tendency to spread fear.

What other misinformation being disseminated by a party leader would we respond to with "jolly good, carry on"?

How do they tell the difference between a harmless woman or a woman that might be a threat. Statistically in England at least, you're more likely to be beaten up by a member of Girls Aloud in the women's toilets than you are assaulted by a trans woman.

jj I really hope I've misread your comment but comparing a 11 year old girl being sexually assaulted at knifepoint by a male-bodied person that should have been nowhere near the women's toilets with getting a quick slap from Cheryl Tweedie sounds awfully like you are treating this with levity.

Would you mention that to the little girl's face? or her father who will be in all sorts of agony now feeling that he should have done something to protect his little girl but he is a good guy and didn't want to go into the ladies toilets.

'oh haha, you were unlucky to get Katie Dolotowski that day - Cheryl Tweedie was on a day off'..

as I say, I sincerely hope I have misread your apparent levity.

and statistically, no, you are significantly more likely to get attacked by a male, regardless of how he identifies.

but no one in Sir K's camp was making it clear that none of the deaths took place in the UK this year or even last year (none ever in Scotland or Ireland), helping to perpetuate the myth that transgender people are in mortal danger in this country when it is actually one of the safest places they can be.

Again - this is like people complaining that there are too many black people on telly and they’re only x% of Britain so they shouldn’t get all of these roles. Because apparently talent is tied to demographics

twitter.com/keir_starmer/status/1327322502901751809?s=21

Wait why was KS tweeting about Diwali celebrations around the world? What does that have to do with Britain? Only 1% of British people are Hindu. Why isn’t he tweeting about Advent? Does he hate Christians?

this is like people complaining that there are too many black people on telly

I can't see how this is similar.

That's a silly post Turnitonagain.

Argue about the thing you are arguing about. If you have to resort to dragging other unrelated issues in to make your point, you are demonstrating a lack of argument.

The comment is based on the mortal danger, the actual point of the day, is a myth in the UK.

Do you have an argument against this being a myth?

Diwali isn't a myth so that's not a comparator and the talent argument is so unrelated I can only assume you have a collection of "bigotry" things you simply roll out for shaming purposes. Which isn't unusual I suppose.

Are you happy that myths are perpetuated?

Deserve to be loved for their true selves..."

Oh for goodness sake, we're talking about a minority population of this country, not orphaned pet kittens. Can you imagine any public figure using this kind of infantilising, condescending language about any other population group?

Who exactly is Angela calling on to love these people? How precisely does she envisage this loving on being carried out? What's the difference she perceives between the group she calls on to do the loving and the group she wants to see loved? - because I think she's betrayed here what 'woke' actually is to many , and it's got more to do with naiive and privileged sentimentality than with than seeing anyone she's talking about as a real and equal human being. She is not nearly as woke as she thinks she is.

Not to mention, perhaps Angela might like to consider that the overwhelming majority of what I see from the TRA community involves at one end telling me my voice is irrelevant, that I don't exist and certainly anything I have to say is either wrong, stupid or insufficiently evidenced to expect male people to take note in permitting me to retain any rights; kicking windows and screaming threats if I try to meet to talk about current law, and wearing t shirts and posting memes with blood on them, instructing me to go and die in various horrible ways.

I'm fairly sure they don't want my love.

Not being a masochist, this behaviour doesn't do much to inspire love either.

And if Angela wants to take the last step down the path she's on and enjoy some fantasy of female socialised people turning the other cheek and love bombing some peace and light back into this debate..... and in this fantasy she believes this may actually work - there is going to be no help for it but to remove her to a spa somewhere with a copy of Lundy Bancroft.

the actual point of the day, is a myth in the UK

I don't get this point.
Just because, according to you, "it's a myth" and so no point acknowledging it in the UK, then it should be ignored? Not marked or commented on?
I mean, there are trans people in the UK, you cannot deny that fact.
How is it a bad thing to show some support, kind of "we acknowledge and accept this day and any struggles?"
Instead of saying (in general on the thread, not necessarily you) shouldn't be doing that, what's it to do with the UK , minimising assaults, going "where's our day? and so on?

transrespect.org/en/about/tvt-project/
From this page about the organisation set up to gather data.
This ongoing, comparative qualitative-quantitative research is first and foremost grounded in, and serves gender-diverse/trans people’s movements and activism. The project seeks to provide an overview of the human-rights situation of trans and gender-diverse persons in different parts of the world and to develop useful data and advocacy tools for international institutions, human-rights organizations, the trans movement, and the general public.

I think this is a good project. What it is finding for this part of the world is that trans people are safe.

Why don't they mention that finding? And why is no-one in the UK saying they are pleased they are safe?
Is that not useful advocacy? Is it ignored precisely because it's not useful? Does it detract from the insistence that Human Rights are denied to mention it.

Jan Morris died on that day, one of the longest lived demographic in the world, hugely successful, major achievements. Successfully transitioned decades ago. Isn't Morris far more representative of trans mortal danger in this country?

@MichelleofzeResistance

Deserve to be loved for their true selves..."

Oh for goodness sake, we're talking about a minority population of this country, not orphaned pet kittens. Can you imagine any public figure using this kind of infantilising, condescending language about any other population group?

Who exactly is Angela calling on to love these people? How precisely does she envisage this loving on being carried out? What's the difference she perceives between the group she calls on to do the loving and the group she wants to see loved? - because I think she's betrayed here what 'woke' actually is to many , and it's got more to do with naiive and privileged sentimentality than with than seeing anyone she's talking about as a real and equal human being. She is not nearly as woke as she thinks she is.

Not to mention, perhaps Angela might like to consider that the overwhelming majority of what I see from the TRA community involves at one end telling me my voice is irrelevant, that I don't exist and certainly anything I have to say is either wrong, stupid or insufficiently evidenced to expect male people to take note in permitting me to retain any rights; kicking windows and screaming threats if I try to meet to talk about current law, and wearing t shirts and posting memes with blood on them, instructing me to go and die in various horrible ways.

I'm fairly sure they don't want my love.

Not being a masochist, this behaviour doesn't do much to inspire love either.

And if Angela wants to take the last step down the path she's on and enjoy some fantasy of female socialised people turning the other cheek and love bombing some peace and light back into this debate..... and in this fantasy she believes this may actually work - there is going to be no help for it but to remove her to a spa somewhere with a copy of Lundy Bancroft.

Great post, all of this is so true!

Just because, according to you, "it's a myth"

It is a myth. The stats have shown over and over that trans people are not being murdered at horrifying rates in this country.

I think the constant perpetuation of this idea that trans people are being killed 'just for being themselves' or are constantly committing suicide, is really damaging, particularly for young trans people.

Hertfordshire Police made a video for trans day of rememberance featuring a young trans woman who appeared to be highly vulnerable, who they had absolutely no business featuring in a video that was going to be public on Twitter and YouTube.

I would think, statistically, a gay man is more vulnerable? I would think statistically a black youth is more vulnerable. I would think statistically a white wc youth is more vulnerable. We could fill the whole year with days of remembrance but the trans community got there first. I think there is a TTF (trans task force) set up to find all the ways the trans community can shout out about their oppression and vulnerability. They are streets ahead on the communications front. We are on the back foot and no idea how to catch up

If a group of feminists decided to organise a day of rememberence for murdered women then I would hope Starmer supported that as well

I would hope so too.

Though I highly suspect, as with international womans day and such, the focus will have to be 'trans women' who are the most discriminated against in the world and such. 'Don't forget, not only cis women are women, and trans women deserve our focus' etc etc

I don't get this point. Just because, according to you, "it's a myth" and so no point acknowledging it in the UK, then it should be ignored? Not marked or commented on?

This is madness. Yes, it is bad to propagate lies. In this case, it is a lie that trans women are especially likely to be victims of violence. That isn't just a lie, it's a very harmful lie. If you find that confusing there is something wrong with your moral compass.

@Joswis

Mumsnet is becoming the antitrans version of All Lives Matter

Lol.

Remind me again who it is that says that women shouldn't centre reproductive systems in women's marches because it is 'exclusionary'? Who insists that mothers should be referred to as 'birthing parents' or 'birthing bodies' so as not to offend anyone? Who gives Karen Ingala Smith abuse because she doesn't include males who 'identify as women' on her lists of women who have been murdered? Who insist that males should be allowed on all women shortlists? Who is campaigning for single sex exemptions to be abolished from the Equality Act so that women would not ever be allowed any single sex spaces of their own?

Who, exactly, is 'All Lives Matter'ing here?

@Joswis

Mumsnet is becoming the antitrans version of All Lives Matter

Anti propaganda.

Instead of saying (in general on the thread, not necessarily you) shouldn't be doing that, what's it to do with the UK , minimising assaults, going "where's our day? and so on?

Actually read the thread and what people are actually saying and you'll find that no one is saying this at all. In fact if this entire ideology and activist movement would just listen to and try understanding what female people are saying instead of whacking a shallow misunderstanding over it and then shouting about how offensive their misconception is, there'd be far less of a problem.

It is a myth. The stats have shown over and over that trans people are not being murdered at horrifying rates in this country

OK, but you've conveniently ignored everything else I said and just fixated on that bit.

Mumsnet is becoming the antitrans version of All Lives Matter

Yep, seems like it!

If a group of feminists decided to organise a day of rememberence for murdered women

This has been done for some years by the wonderful Jean Hatchett, who despite her struggle with cancer has continued her bike rides for murdered British women, centering one woman killed by a domestic partner per ride, which is often a great distance.

Was this celebrated and supported by the trans lobby?

No. Jean was asked by the trans lobby to change her focus to including and centering murdered TW. When Jean said no, her specific focus was the remembering of British females who were DA victims, she became the focus of a campaign to harass and discredit her, and to make her out to be somehow an enemy of the lobby.

This kind of action doesn't do much for gaining reciprocal good will. Respect is a two way thing.

Actually read the thread and what people are actually saying and you'll find that no one is saying this at all.

I have read the thread.
You can't have done, or have missed some posts as people have been doing exactly that.
Several posts of "why don't we get a day" and I paraphrase as can't find the exact post now (long thread) that it's hardly like the holocaust etc.
They're all there (assuming the worst haven't been deleted, but there's definitely still a lot of where's our day? Not happening in the UK so why should it be mentioned here? type posts)

In this case, it is a lie that trans women are especially likely to be victims of violence.

How is it a lie that trans women are likely to be victims of violence?
"Trans people aren't being harmed, they're not victims of violence" - how do you come to that conclusion - seriously, sounds like you're denying violence.
"Didn't happen."
How is that not minimising or denying people who tell you that yes, they are?

Denying abuse that should read

Several posts of "why don't we get a day" and I paraphrase as can't find the exact post now (long thread) that it's hardly like the holocaust etc

Yes, now look again at those posts and actually unpack what was being said in them, instead of taking surface offense at a very crude summary spun towards minimising.

Multiple points, made over and over and over again. The sheer numbers of women domestically murdered in the UK who no one gives a shit about, never mind remembers compared to the number of TW domestically murdered in the UK. Female victims frequently aren't even named in the obituary of their husband's murder suicide in amongst the 'he was a lovely man' bullshit. The massive difference in visibility, recognition, respect, is something you're evidencing right here by dismissing it. Two to three women a week, and mentioning it is offensive to you when women question why there's a solemn, important day for TW but not anything at all for murdered females?

And yes, when a group has chosen to use a term like 'day of remembrance' which is term used for the memorial of the terrible deaths of millions, in the service of their country or through genocide, you have to expect that people are going to unpack the semantic content and point out: there is likely political purpose in appropriating that phrase for the associations, and the comparison raises questions.

Me: In this case, it is a lie that trans women are especially likely to be victims of violence.

Q: How is it a lie that trans women are likely to be victims of violence?

The word you left out is important - do you not even see your own blatant dishonesty? No wonder you're confused by the idea that it's wrong to propagate lies.