Kier shows his colours

[averylongtimeago]

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

So to protect dignity you think women should go along with this they don't believe in to make someone born male feel better ?

When you go to hospital do you think you should be medically treated according to identity or sex?

Bare in mind that Ignoring sex can and has been fatal

@longestlurkerever as is often said here...

Words and deeds... which hurt most? I tell you I disagree with you... I kick the shit out of you?

You are stoutly defending against the former with scant thought for the second!

I don't think that at all. I'm saying I don't think it's something to be totally dismissed.

@longestlurkerever

I don't think that at all. I'm saying I don't think it's something to be totally dismissed.

It isn't being dismissed.

Your username suggests you've been round these parts a while. So you'll know it isn't women refusing debate.

So you aren't trying to advocate fir the removal of sex segregation so those born male feel better?

Or that we owe it to complete strangers ro go along with this we don't believe in even if doing so puts us at risk?

@longestlurkerever

"spaces aren't separated by Identity, they're separated by sex". That's exactly the question up for grabs isn't it? Whether they should be separated by sex or whether they should be separated by gender identity? And which spaces?

In order to have spaces segregated by 'gender identity' there needs to be a totally objective consensus on what 'gender identity' actually means and also solid proof that perpetration of crimes is rooted in gender identity and not sex. We are never going to get either of those things. Everyone has a different definition of what a 'transwoman' actually is and at what point someone becomes trans.

98% of sexual offences are perpetrated by males. Males a 'high risk class'. It is for this reason that my husband, who is a lovely guy and definitely not a threat to women, is not allowed in female changing rooms because he is in the male class.

So in order to segregate things by gender identity, there would have to be a completely objective agreed upon point, upon which law and policy can be made, at which a male who 'identifies as a woman' comes out of the high risk category of male and into the lower risk category of female. Is that point full GRS? Breast implants? Facial feminisation surgery? Long hair, makeup, a dress? Or simply that man's declaration that he is a woman?

Until we get consensus on that and can make laws accordingly, the question of whether things should be segregated by gender identity is a complete and utter non-starter.

The only objective way to do it is by biological sex.

I'm not stoutly defending anything. I'm discussing it. I said right at the beginning that my views are not as fully formed as many on here. But people also said they didn't understand a pov that I can understand and was trying to explain.

@longestlurkerever

I don't think that at all. I'm saying I don't think it's something to be totally dismissed.

What would be your basis of 'gender identity'? Would it just be that any man who claims to identify as a woman can access women's spaces? Can use see any potential problems with that?

Or is it based on something else? If so, what? Should there be certain criteria?

My username is these days highly inaccurate and refers to lurking around Mumsnet generally. I pop on to these boards from time to time to try to understand but I generally give them a big swerve for the reasons I said - it's a scary place!

@longestlurkerever thank you for sticking around and discussing this by the way.

See I think this is where we are in vehement agreement. It's bloody difficult to pinpoint where respect for gender identity should trump other issues when gender identity is so fluid and subjective. So you come back around to thinking that women's rights really have to take precedence in cases where it is sex at stake, but perhaps less so where it's a case of cultural experience - school, brownies etc, though that's a difficult area in itself because a large part of that experience is bound up in sex and the fact that people can't escape their biological sex and a large part of that experience is down to their sex. You start to narrow down the issues that really matter. Anyway, I really must stop this now. I have work to do!

According to the BBC there are over 100 genders ..

How would these be grouped together in order to accommodate?

@longestlurkerever

I'm not stoutly defending anything. I'm discussing it. I said right at the beginning that my views are not as fully formed as many on here. But people also said they didn't understand a pov that I can understand and was trying to explain.

I think the 'don't understand' comment was not understadning how anyone can think that transwomen are women, not that the pov wasn't understood.

Thanks for coming back and not being pissed off though!

I was in your position about 3/4 years ago now! Being here has been something of a revelation... and yes, I did get a bit of a roasting too!

Thanks all. I'm not flouncing off now. Just this is a fascinating rabbit hole but one I must jump out of for now.

Hopefully read you later...

@longestlurkerever

Thanks all. I'm not flouncing off now. Just this is a fascinating rabbit hole but one I must jump out of for now.

I have been where you are now hope to see you on here again soon.

@longestlurkerever

Thanks all. I'm not flouncing off now. Just this is a fascinating rabbit hole but one I must jump out of for now.

What curious says, it can be interesting to hear different voices

And what duckwit said

I’m so slow at typing

Hi longest, personally I find it easier to follow and respond to posts that refer to one specific post rather than generalising about many.

A question that many have found useful to think about: Should teenage girls have the right to undress in a penis free area? (The Helen Staniland question)

And I think I asked earlier (might have been a different thread) - what do I advise my teenage daughter to do if she goes into the toilets and there is a man in there?
A) don’t worry dear, it is just a transwoman who has decided not to transition their appearance (like Danielle Muscato) they won’t bother you
B) be a bit careful - it might be a lesbian identifying transwoman who wants to try it on with you (Alex Drummond) but I’m sure they’ll take no for an answer if you are firm about it.

C) No male should be in the women’s toilets, however they identify - get out quick and alert any staff you can find.
D) don’t worry dear - he’s not going to rape you but make sure you check that he hasn’t hidden a camera to sell pictures of you weeing on Pornhub.

E) faff about trying to decide if he looks like a rapist and then find out the hard way.

Tricky.

Studies have shown that transwomen have the same crime rates as men and vastly higher than women. Sex offenders identifying as women (and housed in the women’s estate) represent 60% of the transwomen prison population as opposed to 17% sex offenders in the male population. This either indicates that many sex offenders identify as women to get access to women prisoners or transwomen have a higher rate of sex offending. Either way it’s not great.

Also, as has been mentioned before (I think Michelle said it upthread - what do we do with the girls whose religious beliefs prevent them from using the facilities when a male is present?

Slightly bizarrely some transwomen are now saying that with all this fuss about single second spaces, they are now scared of being attacked by women in the women’s toilets. More argument for third spaces I think?

@Quaagars

is as tone deaf as asking for a white history month Who is tone deaf

Pressed too soon - presumably the poster wasn't referring to anyone person in particular, just saying "what about our day of remembrance?" on trans remembrance day is along the same lines of tone deafness of "what about white history month?"

Yes exactly.

There are issues with the women and transwoman but saying a party leader shouldn’t be tweeting an obviously pre-written bit of pablum about a day to remember people who have been killed is petty and makes the OP and anyone agreeing with her on this particular point look hateful.

As I posted above and got no replied to KS may be the MP who has done the most in his professional career to address violence against women so it’s a bit ridiculous to now say his “true colours” are that he hates women. For a bloody tweet in support of one of a million random “day of blah.” Come on.

Careful Ladeeze.. we're getting close to being nice

You start to narrow down the issues that really matter.

Absolutely- might see you later. It can be a wild ride but as others have observed, once you start seeing the problem it’s hard to unsee.

There are issues with the women and transwoman but saying a party leader shouldn’t be tweeting an obviously pre-written bit of pablum about a day to remember people who have been killed is petty and makes the OP and anyone agreeing with her on this particular point look hateful.

but no one in Sir K's camp was making it clear that none of the deaths took place in the UK this year or even last year (none ever in Scotland or Ireland), helping to perpetuate the myth that transgender people are in mortal danger in this country when it is actually one of the safest places they can be.

The activists are constantly telling transgender people here that everyone hates them and JK wants them dead etc etc which is simply not true.

Most people would take absolutely no notice of transgender people carrying on their daily life and honestly don't care how they want to present. The thing we care about it protecting women and children from the bad guys and maintaining measures that facilitate that and don't end up excluding women from our legally protected spaces.

Now I must take a leaf out of Longest's book and get some bloomin work done.

twitter.com/Jude90293402/status/1330779112168771585

this is where it ends up. A heartbroken mother has spoken.

Please...don't take anything Angela Raynor says. She is the standard sop deputy leader to try and keep the left of the party happy. She isn't good for much else.

The real key is what Starmer says along with the senior ones around him...and that is still a worry....he can't even get rid of the antisemites as they are now keeping their heads down but we know they are still there