Kier shows his colours

[averylongtimeago]

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

@Quaagars

Becunted ones?! Wow, what a term, I find that more dehumanising than anything - talk about reducing us to our body parts! Tasteful

Yes dear! That's the whole point!

Women are not 'women' remember. We are a subset of women. So how do you recognise us?

Or is sarcasm simply not allowed.... by women...?

Women are not 'women' remember

Yes they are.
As I said, I don't magically stop being a woman.
If somebody doesn't see themselves as a real one, or less of a one if trans women are thought of as women too, then fair enough

@Quaagars

Women are not 'women' remember

Yes they are.
As I said, I don't magically stop being a woman.
If somebody doesn't see themselves as a real one, or less of a one if trans women are thought of as women too, then fair enough

That is, as you know full well, utterly disingenuous!

You've been here long enough to have seen all the examples of women being decribed as other than 'women', you know what I am referring to. Not YOUR opinion, but TRA machinations!

So quaggers

You think when black women are 5 tines more likely to die in child birth that its ok to call them "black birthing bodies"

Or when SANDS referred to women who had lost their babies as "birthing parents" it was ok?

[quote turnitonagain]@OldCrone do you have any data on UK transwomen victims of violent crime? Are they largely marginalised sex workers as is the trend in other places like US, Brazil, or is it totally different? We all know men commit more crime than women, not sure how that’s relevant to this discussion? I would assume violence against both women and transwomen is done almost entirely by men.

What I was saying which you’re trying to fight me over is that I do not accept that all women are inherently less privileged than all men on account of sex alone. Therefore I maintain my view that “where’s the women’s day of remembrance” when there’s International Women’s Day, International Day of the Girl, and Mother’s Day (off the top of my head) is as tone deaf as asking for a white history month.[/quote]
I don't know if you're deliberately missing my points or just skim reading quickly and end up misinterpreting what I'm saying.

I said in my earlier post "Of course some women are more privileged than some men" so I don't know why you think I'm arguing with you about that. It's just that sometimes two simple categories 'women' and 'men' is enough, as you acknowledge in your post that men are more violent than women.

And I don't know anything about UK transwomen who are victims of violent crime. I'm not sure why you think I do. You brought it up, and I just asked if you had any evidence to back up your claims.

Therefore I maintain my view that “where’s the women’s day of remembrance” when there’s International Women’s Day, International Day of the Girl, and Mother’s Day (off the top of my head) is as tone deaf as asking for a white history month. But no day to remember those 2 UK women murdered every week... by a loved one... or the many abused in their own homes!

Who is tone deaf?

But no day to remember those 2 UK women murdered every week... by a loved one... or the many abused in their own homes!

Presumably trans people set up their own day of remembrance, and so there's nothing to stop women setting one up too?

is as tone deaf as asking for a white history month
Who is tone deaf

Pressed too soon - presumably the poster wasn't referring to anyone person in particular, just saying "what about our day of remembrance?" on trans remembrance day is along the same lines of tone deafness of "what about white history month?"

I'm.sure jean hatchet or Karen Ingala Smith tweeted a list of all the murdered women one yr.

Of course there were tweets asking why someone else wasn't on the list...

Diva printed a list of 100 inspirational lesbians. At least 7 weren't born female...

@Quaagars

But no day to remember those 2 UK women murdered every week... by a loved one... or the many abused in their own homes!

Presumably trans people set up their own day of remembrance, and so there's nothing to stop women setting one up too?

Hmmm! How did they do that?

What is the mechanism by which "A Day" is set up, to be akcnowledged nationally!?!?

Think it through... and tell me what you surmise from it!

(And yes, I do know how...)

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Transgender Day of Remembrance (TDOR) was started in 1999 by transgender advocate Gwendolyn Ann Smith as a vigil to honor the memory of Rita Hester, a transgender woman who was killed in 1998. The vigil commemorated all the transgender people lost to violence since Rita Hester's death, and began an important tradition that has become the annual Transgender Day of Remembrance.

www.glaad.org/tdor

That's how you do it. Organise a vigil, invite other feminists groups around the world to join you which I think many probably would and over time it's likely to evolve into an internationally well supported event. No conspiracy necessary.

Karen Ingala Smith has definitely had shit in the past for not including transwomen on her lists. Which goes back to the thing of trans people being 'women/men' when it suits them, and 'trans' as a separate group when it suits them.

If transwomen are trans and are to be remembered on a 'trans day of remembrance' then why would they also expect to be included on a list that is meant for remembering women.

It's a bit like when Lily Madigan (who?! ) went on and on about how they were a woman, how they could represent women as a women's officer, should be on all women shortlists etc but also talked about how they wanted to be the first trans MP - if they are actually a woman then they wouldn't be breaking new ground as we have already had women MPs.

Conspiracy???

MMmmm! Says more about you than me that you leapt to that!

I was thinking more about the PR /publicity self centred ness!

And about the UK uptake!

It was also LM I think who showed up at a reclaim the night march

It seems to me quite obvious why third spaces aren't considered the answer and I thought jj's links answered that quite well - it's because not allowing entry to female spaces is effectively saying "we don't accept your gender identity" every time someone wants to participate in daily life by using the loo or going on brownie camp or whatever it happens to be. It likely does have the impact in the links cited by jj. But then you have the arguments about female safety and dignity. Those don't go away because you've acknowledged the validity of the other pov and you (you here being the leader of the opposition, say) start to see third spaces as perhaps the least worst option. I think "female dignity" and "security of gender identity" are kind of similar in the sense they are hard to explain to someone who doesn't personally experience it. But some posters have dismissed one while at the same time telling jj he is not in a position to assess the other. I know this probably won't come across well and I really do take the point that these issues have been well rehearsed and I'm wading in with assumptions and insinuations but the premise of the thread was that we await a declared stance of the leader of the opposition on this issue so it'd be a shame if you've given upon these issues being understood by a broader audience, even if it's very tedious and frustrating to go back to basics all the time, for which I do apologise.

Not quite sure how wanting sex separation means you are not accepting a gender identity
sex isn't an identity

But again gender is personal to that person. Why are other people involved. Why do we owe it to complete strangers to validate their identity?

No one else has that. We are not here to go along with things we don't necessarily believe in.

And again spaces aren't separated by identity they are separated by sex.

Well for the same reason we owe it to complete strangers to respect their dignity imo.

I do that by using the correct sex segregated facilities and by not yelling insults at people.

I dont believe in God either so am not about to start praying to validate someone else's belief. We aren't support humans for peole who require validation

"spaces aren't separated by Identity, they're separated by sex". That's exactly the question up for grabs isn't it? Whether they should be separated by sex or whether they should be separated by gender identity? And which spaces?

@longestlurkerever

Well for the same reason we owe it to complete strangers to respect their dignity imo.

I'm a complete starnger to you... how about you respect mine?!?!

@longestlurkerever

"spaces aren't separated by Identity, they're separated by sex". That's exactly the question up for grabs isn't it? Whether they should be separated by sex or whether they should be separated by gender identity? And which spaces?

Interesting choice of phrase

Up for grabs, not

Up for discussion!

They are separated by sex so that when you are in a group situation kn a state if vulnerability thise other people in the space have the same body.

Because I don't want to see a oenis that doesn't belong to my dp.

And penises have been used as a weapon.against women since humans walked the planet.

None of that has anything to do with identities which is personal and something only that person believes in...

Well I think that's where we differ. I think there is an obligation not to misgender people etc - as set out by Lady Hale in the paragraph I cited, as well as an obligation to protect safety and protect dignity and so on and the question becomes how we can best balance these obligations, and I do agree that too little emphasis has to date been placed on the latter, especially in light of self id.