Kier shows his colours

[averylongtimeago]

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

[quote turnitonagain]@OldCrone they are in the US, if it’s not the case in the UK my mistake.

Most women in the UK (and US) are white, therefore race does factor into it. People have multiple identities, a woman is not inherently less privileged than a man on the basis of sex alone.[/quote]
You can't just observe a phenomenon in the US and assume the same is happening elsewhere. The US is a country with a completely different culture to the UK. We (almost) share a language, but that's about it.

When we're comparing men and women on a societal level, or in statistics, race isn't necessarily a factor. Of course some women are more privileged than some men, but that's not the point. If we're talking about all women, that includes women of all races.

Men commit 90% of violent crimes and over 98% of sexual crimes (UK figures). Some subgroups of men (black, Asian, working class etc) may be over or under represented in these figures, but the numbers of women involved is tiny compared to men.

Most victims of male sexual violence are women and girls. Again, some subgroups of women and girls may be over or underrepresented in these statistics, but women and girls as a class are the main victims.

Ah well I feel a bit guilty there because I was one of the ones who posted about toilets before jj did. But in my defense I'd been asked the same question about then three times, and then a follow up one. So why jj gets the blame for turning the discussion around to toilets I don't know.

What does "moving forward" even mean in this sense anyway.

Either you believe that and and women deserve the privacy dignity and safety of single sex spaces or you don't.

There's no "appropriate list" of circumstances required. Its mens and womens not mens and anyone who might not be safe in the mens...

Any bad behaviour needs to be dealt with within the sex segregated space.

Women are not here to absorb violence ajd nail men out if having to accept gender non conforming makes.

Why do the rights of males take priority?

That men and women

You might prefer following Women's Place UK on Twitter longest. Just bear in mind that they still get called a hate group.

Well in this specific context to me it means persuading the leader of the opposition to change his party's stance on self ID, I would have thought. And I do think the issues are different in different contexts. That's one of the reasons I quoted lady Hale. The lived experience of being a woman is a mix of biology and cultural experience. And to the extent hormones are distinct from other biology there might well be ways in which transwomen share the experience of women, and other ways in which they don't. And there are harms that can be easily addressed through other means - like enclosed toilet cubicles and more safety measures generally for example - and those which can't be. I don't see it as an all or nothing fight.

@OldCrone do you have any data on UK transwomen victims of violent crime? Are they largely marginalised sex workers as is the trend in other places like US, Brazil, or is it totally different? We all know men commit more crime than women, not sure how that’s relevant to this discussion? I would assume violence against both women and transwomen is done almost entirely by men.

What I was saying which you’re trying to fight me over is that I do not accept that all women are inherently less privileged than all men on account of sex alone. Therefore I maintain my view that “where’s the women’s day of remembrance” when there’s International Women’s Day, International Day of the Girl, and Mother’s Day (off the top of my head) is as tone deaf as asking for a white history month.

But there's only one "experience " that women consistently share and thats being born female.

Thats the only thing required. Everything else will depend on a multitude of factors.

Spaces are nor segregated by experiences but by biology/sex

And so the debate becomes "which spaces really need to be segregated on the grounds of sex?". And it may not be all the ones that currently are. Then there's the follow up question, what about women's prizes etc- are they segregated because of biology or because of the lived experience of women? It's complicated imo. And I agree with turniton on the privilege issue - it was vehemently pointed out to me that my lived experience as a middle class white woman is not the same as a more vulnerable woman. And I agree with that. It doesn't mean I don't have the right to speak on behalf of women generally, including less privileged women,but it makes me wary of wading into some kind of hierarchy of rights discussion.

Spaces where people are vulnerable and or in a state of undress should be separated by sex.

Its not done to upset anyone its done to protect people.

Third spaces were the obvious solution but guess what no one was interested. The only time unisex facilities are acceptable is when they replace the single sex ones.

Do you know why pools and gyms stopped doing women only sessions? Because men complained. Did they ring up and ask for ir men only sessions? No. Men just didnt want women having them.

Longest
The trans debate should not about a hierarchy rights. It should be keeping people safe and how best to do it. As the weaker sex, women are the most vulnerable regardless of social class or ethnic origin. Therefore the debate should be centred on women and their needs with all others being considered thereafter. But it isn’t. The entire process is back to front.

Well I agree with all of that. Which is why the focus on how many transpeople have died or whether KS should be tweeting about then at all and so on just struck a nasty note. And I can understand the points you just made but they get lost under the sarcasm sometimes.

As an aside my local pool does both men only and women only sessions.

One of very few then...

None near me do.

Addition is the logical solution but often things are just taken away instead.

@longestlurkerever

Well I agree with all of that. Which is why the focus on how many transpeople have died or whether KS should be tweeting about then at all and so on just struck a nasty note. And I can understand the points you just made but they get lost under the sarcasm sometimes.

Neither the day of remembrance nor KS’s tweet takes anything from women so I am on your page.

If on Mother’s Day he tweets about transwomen then that’s a different story.

but as a lurker/curious bystander all I see is sarcasm and dismissal towards one poster who represents a different pov. I think the debate has become poisonous
Yep

And tbh I'm scared even to say that because you'll probably just say I'm asking you all to #bekind
Don't be, call it out

Plus also bit baffled as to why one poster is getting flack for answering questions put to them - it's a case of don't answer, get told can't be bothered to answer, or doesn't want to, or if you do, it's a derail.
How people can be so disgusting to one person is beyond me

Neither the day of remembrance nor KS’s tweet takes anything from women so I am on your page

Except women aren't even allowed to be named these days. Transpeople are named. Men are named. We are menstruatirs or cervix havers or vulva people.

Labour also appointed at least 2 womens officers who weren't born female.

@longestlurkerever

Ah well I feel a bit guilty there because I was one of the ones who posted about toilets before jj did. But in my defense I'd been asked the same question about then three times, and then a follow up one. So why jj gets the blame for turning the discussion around to toilets I don't know.

I'm sorry if it sounded a bit tetchy last night and you won't be aware of this but we have had this (almost exact same) conversation with this particular poster many many times so while obviously I am personally happy to engage with everyone because pretty much all dialogue is a good thing (I do believe we need to try and move this thing forward) but sometimes (maybe inadvertently from that poster), the main point of the thread gets derailed (and maybe jj got unfairly blamed that time but that is a very regular focus of conversation with that poster, whatever the original topic of the thread).

As was pointed out very astutely upthread, we have discussed safeguarding to women and girls and the need for single sex spaces also for privacy and dignity in great depth and established without question that it is essential for the majority of women (some obviously are not bothered but that doesn't mean that the rest of us don't have the need).

We have brought out evidence, statistics and sometimes quite distressing personal testimony as to the reasons why we need single sex spaces to be protected.

As another pp also mentions, many people would support a solution that would suit everyones needs ie. third/neutral spaces (as currently being campaigned for by high profile transsexual Fionne Orlander (I'm fairly sure that's how she refers to herself).

Some posters who are quite fixed on the idea that any male should be able to enter women's spaces tend to reject the third spaces solution out of hand. Most of us support the idea of third spaces so will argue the point firmly and I think that is fair enough. If there is a compelling argument against third spaces, it needs to be brought out and discussed.

So here we are. It is a discussion forum and no one should feel scared about putting forward their points, especially people new to it who haven't seen the full extent of the problem. We do need to move forward but moving forward doesn't incorporate women moving aside for men and I personally welcome the input you have had longest - I hope you stick around.

No fucker has said anything to the bloody contrary.

That's so infuriating! It insinuates so much and IS NOT FUCKING TRUE!!!!!

GC women don't wander round saying trans people don't exist! We aren't fucking stupid!

But TRAs trot that one out - ooh I do exist, my existence is valid etc etc etc AND NO GC WOMAN SAYS NO IT FUCKING ISN'T! But nobody listens!

And @longestlurkerever as politely as I can - LURK SOME MORE and maybe see that we have long given up pn winning hearts ad mids. We, women, becunted ones, are sick and tired of being told to be nice. Look where it has got us - defending our right be be called women, let alone have femaile on spaces etc etc.

TRAs didn't get thios far by being nice. They were covert initially and are now extremely unpleasant. Maybe we GC women should start wielding barbed wire wrapped baseball bats, maybe call them all Lucille, and have at anyone who dares contradict us on SM! Sauce for the goose after all!

Neither the day of remembrance nor KS’s tweet takes anything from women so I am on your page

Except women aren't even allowed to be named these days
I'm still a woman, the word hasn't vanished. I don't suddenly stop being one just because trans women can be called women or trans women too.
It's correct to say a trans day of remembrance takes nothing from us - if you're not trans, it's not your day, is it?
It takes nothing from us if they have a day of remembrance.

I don't suddenly stop being one just because trans women can be called women or trans women too. Not even very good sophistry there!

Transwomen are transwomen! They are all born male. They are not women, they can't be!

If you know differently tell me how....

(Yes, I know women don't have to stay classy or tasteful before anyone says, was just saying - nice, not)

Doesn't jt strike you as unfair that we are reduced to being people who menstryate whilst everyone is able to make their sex or status.

You cant do anything about sexism or discrimination if you cant name who it affects .