Kier shows his colours

[averylongtimeago]

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

No it wasn't unless you've got any evidence of trans women committing voyeurism and other sexual offences in women's toilets.

That reminds me jj, you still haven't answered my question from earlier. Here it is again with an extra category which I forgot earlier:

In your ideal world, where self-identified 'transwomen' can enter female only spaces at will, how do women and girls tell the difference between:

a. A harmless transwoman, who is no threat to anyone
b. A man pretending to be a transwoman, who may be a threat
c. A man who is not pretending to be a transwoman, who may also be a threat
d. A transwoman who may be a threat?

Because as far as I can tell, the difference is all in their heads and none of us are mind readers.

"In your ideal world, where self-identified 'transwomen' can enter female only spaces at will, how do women and girls tell the difference between:

a. A harmless transwoman, who is no threat to anyone
b. A man pretending to be a transwoman, who may be a threat
c. A man who is not pretending to be a transwoman, who may also be a threat
d. A transwoman who may be a threat?"

Well given that is the world we live in now in the UK then the same way they always have.

How do they tell the difference between a harmless woman or a woman that might be a threat. Statistically in England at least, you're more likely to be beaten up by a member of Girls Aloud in the women's toilets than you are assaulted by a trans woman.

How do they tell the difference between a masculine apearing woman, a woman with a DSD, or a trans man, and a man who might be a threat?

How do they tell the difference between a toilet cleaner and someone masquerading as a toilet cleaner with predatory intent?

The answer is they can't. The world is not perfect but luckily we do know that the chances of being assaulted by a trans women in the women's toilets are hundreds of millions to one and that there are no reported incidents of a man claiming to be a trans woman and assaulting in a woman in a toilet.

Anyway enough about toilets, because it will be me that gets blamed for the derail.

www.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/us/target-transgender-idaho-voyeurism.html

metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/

[quote Impatiens]www.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/us/target-transgender-idaho-voyeurism.html

metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/[/quote]
Yes I've agreed there has been one incident in a toilet. I believe the Target incident is the only reported offence by trans women in a women's changing room which suggests that trans inclusion in changing rooms has not caused problems regarding safety either.

Anyway enough about toilets.

@jj1968

"In your ideal world, where self-identified 'transwomen' can enter female only spaces at will, how do women and girls tell the difference between:

a. A harmless transwoman, who is no threat to anyone
b. A man pretending to be a transwoman, who may be a threat
c. A man who is not pretending to be a transwoman, who may also be a threat
d. A transwoman who may be a threat?"

Well given that is the world we live in now in the UK then the same way they always have.

Thanks for confirming that there is no way to tell the difference between transwomen and predatory men.

there are no reported incidents of a man claiming to be a trans woman and assaulting in a woman in a toilet.

Well, there's at least one who assaulted a girl in a public toilet. Girls matter too.

problems regarding safety

You really don't get it, do you jj? You don't understand that it's not just about safety. We just don't want male people in what should be women-only spaces. But you'll never understand that because you haven't got a clue what it's like to be a woman.

there are no reported incidents of a man claiming to be a trans woman and assaulting in a woman in a toilet

Why do you say, a man claiming to be trans? Are you saying that the offender in question was not really trans?

[quote Impatiens]**@Mummyoflittledragon

You've misunderstood me - I was referring to 'jj' pushing their trans activist agenda. Probably shouldn't have quoted you..not doing very well here at the mo, lol![/quote]
Sorry, yes, I did wonder after if I had misconstrued what you said but I’d posted and figured it wasn’t that harsh has I done so.... 😬

@longestlurkerever I know the conversation has moved on but I do agree with you. Some posters here take a very hard line on the trans issue and people who see any shades of gray can be quite harshly attacked.

The tone of the OP here is very much a “well why isn’t there a white history month?” Does anyone actually believe if there were a Women’s Rememberance Day that major politicians would simply ignore it because they’re more focused on the trans community? It’s laughable.

I like you agree with some parts of the debate here and think others are overblown. But the areas where I disagree are pounced on. It’s not a great way to engage with people who are 75% on your side and it will certainly turn off those who are 50% or less.

To compare discussion here to 'what about white history month' is both ludicrous and offensive in the way that it assumes women have some sort of systemic privilege over males.

@BlackWaveComing

To compare discussion here to 'what about white history month' is both ludicrous and offensive in the way that it assumes women have some sort of systemic privilege over males.

I would say white women in many areas have privilege over marginalised males of colour, who are the main victims of anti-trans violence.

thecritic.co.uk/issues/april-2020/my-fgm-hero/

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2013/jul/10/keir-starmer-inquiry-rape-domestic-violence

Yeah Keir definitely doesn’t care about violence against women...

2011 study in Sweden. Got this off Twitter (Chiefprune) 2nd paragraph under “Gender differences” refers to retained levels of criminality in transwomen offending groups.
journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

Sorry that should be retained MALE

To compare discussion here to 'what about white history month' is both ludicrous and offensive in the way that it assumes women have some sort of systemic privilege over males.

I would say white women in many areas have privilege over marginalised males of colour, who are the main victims of anti-trans violence.

Why have you changed a comment about women compared to men into one about white women compared to black men?

And is there any evidence that black transwomen are the main victims of anti trans violence in the UK?

We are screaming at you that we are scared and your answer is that you don’t know or care if we are safe in what should single sex spaces. And this is evidently because as women, our role is to serve, move over and #bekind. This leads to our inferior lady brains being transphobic and in need of education.

YY and all we get is "tough shit we're doing it anyway".

^^this along with “we are going to break laws in place to protect women because it is unlikely we will be caught” and if you question it you get back “we have been breaking those laws and ignoring women’s rights for years already”.

@OldCrone they are in the US, if it’s not the case in the UK my mistake.

Most women in the UK (and US) are white, therefore race does factor into it. People have multiple identities, a woman is not inherently less privileged than a man on the basis of sex alone.

@jj1968

No they are not, the evidence shows that transwomen are the safest demographic.

What evidence? That factcheck refers to trans people overall, including trans men and those who (in GIRES words) are gender variant to some degree in which case their gender variant status may not be known if they were murdered. All but one I think of the victims of murder over the last few years were transitioned trans women (and the one who wasn't was female presenting but identified as gender fluid as I recall). It then goes on to say that trans people overall (not trans women) are murdered at a lower rate than people overall (not women). We know men are murdered at a much higher rate. That factcheck isn't evidence of anything remotely approaching your claim that trans women are the safest demographic. So where's your evidence, or is this just another GC soundbite that is regularly parrotted but never substantiated?

so. of the whole group under the heading transgender people

6 x transwomen - inc. 1 murdered by another transwoman and 1 murdered by their partner (so probably not related to transphobia)
1 x non binary
2 x transmen (they do count as trans)

so, if you take the whole category of 'transgender people' and find it to be the group least likely to be murdered and transwomen are a subset of that how could you not possibly see that transwomen are part of the safest demographic??

If you click on the ONS link in the Channel4 Fact check it gives a breakdown by sex and I think it was Nauticant and OldCrone that did some excellent number crunching upthread (check it out if you are interested) that demonstrates my point.

I must say thank you at this point though jj - you do put so much time and effort into this and it really does help to have the opportunity to air the facts again for the new lurkers we are gaining all the time. I directed a concerned friend over here very recently to have a look as she has realised there is a problem and wants to find out more so all the basic facts re. transgender being the safest group of people in this country (and in Brazil by the looks of it) will be useful for them.

Obviously the absolute shocker from Amnesty International calling for basic human rights to be removed from people (mainly women) who 'defend biology' is also helping.

Coupled with the big publicity push for Sarah Pedersen's book The Politicisation of Mumsnet which also raises the profile, I appreciate your efforts - if you are a Gender critical plant, you're doing a top job deep undercover.

@jj1968
I asked you a question, which has now been deleted. And I ask it again. Along with my comment below, which was deleted in the process.

1. Why rather than expecting women to move over, are you not campaigning for men to accommodate and accept all people, whose sex was observed as male at birth, regardless of they now identify?

2. Would 1) not be more effective than trampling all over women’s boundaries?

3. Do you think gender critical women are all transphobic and in need of education?

We are screaming that we are scared and your answer is that you don’t know or care if we are safe in what should be a single sex space. And this is evidently because as women, our role is to serve, move over and #bekind.

Thanks Turniton. I learned more yesterday from the patient posters than I have from ages of lurking but quite honestly the tone of yesterday evening's debate has turned me right off again and I can't see myself participating any further. I know there must be some history between you all and jj but as a lurker/curious bystander all I see is sarcasm and dismissal towards one poster who represents a different pov. And tbh I'm scared even to say that because you'll probably just say I'm asking you all to #bekind. I think the debate has become poisonous and it means it's very hard for someone like KS to wade in. You need the mountain to move, as someone said, so it seems a curious approach to me not to try to find common ground with people who might be your allies in some areas. JJ for example said "I agree transpeople should care about female privacy and dignity" but no one picked up on this or tried to talk about how to take this issue forwards.