LGBT couple's petition to get "equal" fertility treatment

[GlummyMcGlummerson]

An LGBT couple have launched a petition for gay and lesbian couples get the same rights as heterosexual couples when it comes to fertility treatment. Currently most heterosexual couples, after 2 years of being unable to conceive, would likely qualify for 2-3 rounds of IVF (depending where you live) on the NHS. This LGBT couple think it's discrimination that they don't get the same right.

My lesbian friend has asked me to sign it.

I'm not signing it simply because I don't think it's discrimination because heterosexual couples don't need to use an outside source for their conception when offered IVF. The outside source being an actual human being.

I'm actually pretty furious that ANYONE thinks it's their god given right to use a man's sperm and even more furious that they think they'd be entitled to a woman's egg and body (with men using a surrogate). Do these people realise men and women are human, and that there'd be implications for the baby? My friend is donor conceived and has gone through hell and back WRT (accidentally) finding her birth father, and having the complications that brings (and sadly the eventual rejection) 1 all of which is common now thanks to the likes of ancestry DNA. She always says she wishes her mum, adoptive dad and bio dad would have thought of her and the impact on her when they were going through all this.

Assuming that there was "equality", and gay and lesbian couples qualified for free fertility treatment - where are all the sperm/ donors and surrogates going to come from? And how will the NHS take care of them and the children they conceive? Sperm donation is way more tightly regulated than it used to be, thank god, due to the impact on those conceived - how will this all be regulated and who will foot the Bill? To me, it's just a short cut to normalising surrogacy and creating a market for commercial surrogacy.

Equality doesn't always means "you get exactly the same" especially when circumstances are so different.

https://www.change.org/p/matt-hancock-stop-discriminating-against-lgbtq-families-in-the-nhs?utmcontent=cllsharecopy254207899en-GB%3A0&recruitedbyyid=5e4a1470-278c-11eb-8dba-0dfc9da35170&utmsource=shareepetition&utmmedium=copylink&utmmcampaign=psfcombooshare_initial

I have also said that the guidelines for NHS help when fertility issues have been identified is not standardised across England, which, regardless of sexual orientation etc should be the priority. In my opinion.

Completely agree.

In France there used to be a practice of asking every man who had just had his second healthy baby to donate sperm. They never had a shortage. I don't know if this still applies.

Most women who conceive in the traditional way have not had extensive tests run on their partner, even if they are married to him! Any potential sperm donor who expressed a wish to donate directly, as it were, ahem, should instantly be ruled out!

If there is a local-ish infertility group, it might be worth contacting them to see if anyone would be willing to donate anonymously, Snuggly. That is the only place I can think of where you'd be guaranteed to find a pool of men who both understand the longing for a child and will have been thoroughly screened and tested. Perhaps they might know of a couple who have succeeded in having a child and would be willing to generously spread some happiness? All you'd need is someone trustworthy and close-lipped as a go-between/courier, a sterile sample tube at the male end and a sterile syringe, minus needle, at your end. (Better than a turkey baster as you can put the same force behind the sperm as ejaculation does.) Neither party would need to know the names and details of the other but everyone would need to commit to try a number of times across a six month or year long period.

I think this could work.

You'd need an agreed meeting point for the go-between so handover can be on neutral territory! Fresh sperm last pretty well at body temperature so the go-between tucks the tube down their bra or in a waistband. 😉

'Most women who conceive in the traditional way have not had extensive tests run on their partner, even if they are married to him! '

Well, this!

Women seem to be getting screwed as per usual and now it's the clinic doing it rather than the men :/

They want eggs. They have made spunk do pricey it seems preferable to go through invasive procedures that comes with risk. To do IVF and the clinic offers a deal where you get a discount on that if you hand over some eggs...

Whose the regulator for all of this, does anyone know? It seems really dodgy to me.

The idea that it's become the norm for fertile women to go through all this. Rather than using some spunk. Is bonkers.

I've read the posts and I get her y the reasoning etc but something feels very off...

@NiceGerbil - The HFEA is the regulatory body for fertility treatment in the UK

www.hfea.gov.uk/

Thanks snuggly.

Just had a quick glance and it's a bit odd

A fertile woman using sperm being described as a fertility treatment is wrong surely.

And 'Surrogacy
Surrogacy is the main treatment for male couples who want a family.'

Surrogacy is a treatment? A fertility treatment?

With wording like this on the regulator site no wonder there are challenges coming.

'More and more hopeful parents are having surrogacy treatment overseas.'

There's a link to a handy guide the foreign and commonwealth office have written as well.

All seems very straightforward then.

[quote asnugglysnerd]@PearPickingPorky - for some this may work, however it clearly cannot be a one size fits all suggestion.

A friend of mine co-parents with a gay friend, and it works very well. For others, it would not be the right way to do it.[/quote]
It might not be what some people want, but that isn't to say that therefore, they must have some other option available commercially.

Some people don't like the idea of pregnancy, at all, or adoption - that doesn't suggest they need to have some sort of surrogacy option just to be "fair", or that it would be ok to let such people grow babies artificially if that became possible.

We all have limits due to circumstances outside our control.

I recently wrote to the HFEA to request that they instruct all clinics to cease any surrogacy related treatment including egg donation for the duration of the coronavirus pandemic.

If anyone would like a copy of my letter to crib from pm me.

Looks like I will have to send them another letter to tell them they only have jurisdiction in the UK and should not be promoting surrogacy tourism.

Tip for anyone in the NHS - I use my nhs email and I think that has been helpful - previous emails regarding multiple embryo transfer have been forwarded to higher management for discussion regarding protocols. I now have a direct contact.

@NiceGerbil In 2005, the HFEA abolished the ability for lesbian couples and single women to purchase donor sperm from regulated and licensed sperm banks and have it shipped to private addresses (which although the sperm would still be a substantial cost, it enabled for fertile lesbian couples and single women to carry out home insemination)

This saw an increase in lesbian couples/single women who wanted to start a family making private arrangements via Facebook groups or being in potentially unsafe situations, meeting men who would only agree to donate sperm via NI (natural insemination) - in cases such as this, the men clearly were not donating altruistically, and instead wanted something in return...

I do think that allowing regulated and licensed donor sperm to be shipped to home addresses would allow many lesbian couples/single women to conceive, and remove the need for fertility treatments such as IUI/IVF when the women are fertile...

But I don't really know the answer for men... a gay couple I know had a friend of theirs offer to carry their baby... but I imagine women like this are few and far between, and I imagine a financial incentive would tempt people to use their body in such a way...

Female same sex couples/single women wanting a child need a vastly different approach to male same sex couples/single men wanting a child...

This is why I don't really agree with the petition as a whole... I believe Whitney and Megan have good points - 1) review in to the banning of home insemination, 2) streamlining the criteria for fertility treatment for ALL who need it and offering the same, as opposed to 1 round of IVF compared to 3 rounds of funded IVF 5 mins down the road.

I do remember filling out a form at our clinic and it asked "reason for infertility"... I wrote PCOS, but my girlfriend who has no idea if she is fertile or not as we hadn't tried wrote lesbianism... the nurse didn't seem to find it funny for some reason... (I did) But that goes back to the point that fertile women are turning to these invasive fertility treatments to conceive.

Pretty tricky subject when you look in to it.

Some people don't like the idea of pregnancy, at all

'Social' surrogacy is in the rise due to celebrity culture, in fact on Quora or some other forum I saw a man asking how he can raise the question of "using a surrogate" as his girlfriend has such a beautiful body and he doesn't want a pregnancy to "damage" it. No kidding.

I agree with Gerbil, as in, IVF for fertile couples is not a fertility treatment but a tool for making a family, it is not a treatment for a condition, neither is surrogacy. The woman who is pregnant is not a 'tool' to equip you with a baby, however much you want it. It's a blur in language again.

The useful link for people to go abroad perpetuates the 'use' of a woman in poverty to again be the method by which you 'use' a tools or a 'vessel' to have a baby and there are many making money along the way and it's not the woman, of that we can be certain.

Whilst the Law Commission want to bring this practice back to the UK to end the commercial use of foreign women and their argument is it will protect them, they failed to suggest ways in which women here will be protected. It is a huge can of worms and I encourage people to write to their MPs.

nordicmodelnow.org/2020/05/15/ask-your-mp-to-take-action-on-the-law-commissions-surrogacy-proposals/

@Goosefoot - absolutely, it is not a right to have a child, nor is anyone entitled to it... but people who want to approach things that way have that option... others have the option of self funding treatment via a clinic...

I haven't stated that because a single fertile woman doesn't want to co-parent a child with a single fertile man that there should be a funded alternative option for this. There ARE alternative options, but self funded...

@FannyCann Did you write the letter as you recognised that during the coronavirus pandemic people may struggle financially, and would use the opportunity to 'earn' money? Or because of the pressure on the NHS?

Really interested to hear the views - did you receive a reply?

asnugglysnerd

I wrote as part of my war on surrogacy, but I cited evidence that pregnant women are at increased risk of complications of coronavirus should they catch it, especially in later stages of pregnancy - we have recently had an ICU admission related to this at my hospital. I said women should not be exposed to this risk to supply babies for others.

I also pointed out the financial temptation for women who are struggling as a result of unemployment etc.
I also mentioned unacceptable additional demands in the NHS.

I've also sent the letter to Matt Hancock, my MP and bigwigs in NHS England.

I thought if I was successful that this may be useful in some way in the future. 🤞

@FannyCann

All such valid points. I think the financial temptations are going to increase as women find themselves without other options. Sad really...

I know it is slightly off topic, but I think surrogacy is different in the states, someone may know more, but I believe you can be paid vast amounts for it... I have just found a website where it costs the intended parents in the region of £150,000 - £200,000 as it is "legally recognised and ethical"... I wonder how much of that astronomical cost is passed on from the surrogacy company to the surrogate mother.. But I am sure for many women, worldwide, they might feel tempted to offer their body up for the financial 'reward'.

I have to say, going back to the petition that this thread was originally about, that demanding more of the NHS, at this time certainly, doesn't seem appropriate given the pressure put on it over the last year or so.

@FannyCann
@NiceGerbil

www.brilliantbeginnings.co.uk/how-much-can-uk-surrogates-get-paid/

Blimey.

I’ve not read the full thread so this may have been mentioned already but I did notice that some blogposts and video of Q&A of the blogger couple ‘Wegan’ who are bringing this petition are sponsored by Cryos the sperm bank, the one that they picked their sperm donor from.

www.whatwegandidnext.com/p/about-wegan.html?m=1

www.whatwegandidnext.com/2020/10/updating-you-on-our-baby-journey.html?m=1

Eg it says ‘This post is sponsored by Cryos International. All views are our own.‘ at the bottom of the page and they say that in the video too. They are bloggers so sponsorship goes with the territory and it’s good they are upfront about the sponsorship.

Seems a shame that their petition doesn’t call for a national campaign for UK-based altruistic donors to come forward to help lesbian couples, though for example. If Uk-born children want a relationship with their donor it has be easier if the donor is UK based?

Surely even with semen in shorter supply it shouldn't be more expensive than IVF?

I had IVF with donor sperm. I thought I’d have IUI, but I was given a predicted success rate of 25% after one attempt and 25-30% after three attempts. Those percentages still puzzle me. The donor sperm cost £1000 per sample (or as a special offer, £2000 for three samples). I think the IUI would have been another £1000 per cycle, once all of the additional costs had been included.

IVF was more expensive, but I was told to expect a success rate of 40-45% after one cycle, and 50-55% after three cycles. Also, I knew of three women who’d had unsuccessful IUI, followed by successful IVF.

So, I underwent a medical procedure I probably didn’t need. It worked, but I’ve since wondered if the doctor played down the possible health implications. I just hope my daughter will have no problems.

Professor Robert Winston has written about the inflated costs of private fertility treatment in the UK, and how the prices often bear no relation to the actual cost of providing the treatment.

I would sign a petition to cap these prices. Some people sell their homes to pay for treatment (I personally know a woman who did this). I also find it difficult to trust clinic staff. I feel there might be a conflict of interest between the medical aspect of this work and the sales aspect.

Essentially human reproductive stuff including semen has been fenced off from being something owned by people and actually generally quite straightforward. Into a medical model. All about 'treatment' including when there's nothing wrong with anyone. Including expensive processes drugs and procedures. One treatment involves using the organs of someone else for the best part of a year and at personal risk...

Whole thing is pretty yikes tbh.

One wonders how the human race has managed to be so successful when making babies is such a complex, medical process and potentially 3rd parties as well...

or as a special offer, £2000 for three samples

The clinics are continually providing financial incentives to spend more or do unnecessary procedures and it's always all about profit, I'm not convinced that any of it is really to help people, though it will always appear that way. It is after all, how they get paid themselves. How many fertility doctors with their own clinics are struggling to put food on the table?

I'm also intrigued on the expenses side of donated gametes. How can it add up to £750 per donation for sperm for example, what kind of expenses could one incur? Travel yes, time off work, sure, but £750, really? I wonder how many claim for less than that and at what amounts, so they provide receipts?

I can well understand time off work for egg retrieval to be hugely different, we know the procedures cannot be compared but then is there an argument to pay more for egg donation than sperm donation? Why are they the same if the procedures are invasive and another non-invasive? Are eggs worth more than sperm?

There is more to explore on the ethics around this anyway but it's quite inappropriate I think that a petition like this has any connection to a sponsorship for a sperm bank. That should have been more prominently explained in the petition, good spot Chatty. I like Megan and Whitney less and less.

ChattyLion I saw this too. They are being paid to promote a sperm bank while at the same time campaigning for free IVF for lesbians. It’s quite clear who would benefit from this - the sperm bank!

£750 for a wank :/

You can buy a woman to wank into for a tenth that FFS

Things are looking fucked up.

I’m pretty sure that the £750 is the permitted expenses for egg donors.

This may not be up to date, but sperm donors in the UK used to get £35 expenses per clinic visit. That doesn’t sound like a huge amount, but recently that I realised that they tend to visit the sperm bank frequently over several months, so this could actually add up to a few thousand pounds.

I think there was an issue at one time when it was ruled that children born from donor sperm are entitled to find out who the donor was. There was a drop in donations. Although children born via official AI have no claim on the donors estate the prospect of several unknown children turning up several years later saying 'Hello Dad' to someone in a relationship could be quite off putting.

This is from a HFEA report on sperm donor numbers. The law changed and removed rights to anonymity for people donating gametes from 1st April 2005.

https://www.hfea.gov.uk/donation/donors/rules-around-releasing-donor-information/

It shows a clear, steady increase, year on year from the year before the law changed to 2016. The law change has had no negative impact on the numbers of men donating their sperm. The numbers have increased.