LGBT couple's petition to get "equal" fertility treatment

[GlummyMcGlummerson]

An LGBT couple have launched a petition for gay and lesbian couples get the same rights as heterosexual couples when it comes to fertility treatment. Currently most heterosexual couples, after 2 years of being unable to conceive, would likely qualify for 2-3 rounds of IVF (depending where you live) on the NHS. This LGBT couple think it's discrimination that they don't get the same right.

My lesbian friend has asked me to sign it.

I'm not signing it simply because I don't think it's discrimination because heterosexual couples don't need to use an outside source for their conception when offered IVF. The outside source being an actual human being.

I'm actually pretty furious that ANYONE thinks it's their god given right to use a man's sperm and even more furious that they think they'd be entitled to a woman's egg and body (with men using a surrogate). Do these people realise men and women are human, and that there'd be implications for the baby? My friend is donor conceived and has gone through hell and back WRT (accidentally) finding her birth father, and having the complications that brings (and sadly the eventual rejection) 1 all of which is common now thanks to the likes of ancestry DNA. She always says she wishes her mum, adoptive dad and bio dad would have thought of her and the impact on her when they were going through all this.

Assuming that there was "equality", and gay and lesbian couples qualified for free fertility treatment - where are all the sperm/ donors and surrogates going to come from? And how will the NHS take care of them and the children they conceive? Sperm donation is way more tightly regulated than it used to be, thank god, due to the impact on those conceived - how will this all be regulated and who will foot the Bill? To me, it's just a short cut to normalising surrogacy and creating a market for commercial surrogacy.

Equality doesn't always means "you get exactly the same" especially when circumstances are so different.

https://www.change.org/p/matt-hancock-stop-discriminating-against-lgbtq-families-in-the-nhs?utmcontent=cllsharecopy254207899en-GB%3A0&recruitedbyyid=5e4a1470-278c-11eb-8dba-0dfc9da35170&utmsource=shareepetition&utmmedium=copylink&utmmcampaign=psfcombooshare_initial

@NewlyGranny

Snuggly, I think the solution of you carrying the pregnancy started with your girlfriend's egg is perfect! Fingers crossed it works out for you both. 🤞

Thank you :)

@OhHolyJesus

Hi Asnuggly

I'm always interested in the egg sharing side of things as I understand that clinics often provide a discount if you egg share.

As it's a financial incentive I wonder if that breaches the rules about being an altruistic donor as you're not allowed to receive payment for donating gametes.

Also, I wonder, and I hope you don't mind me asking, but any child from you and your girlfriend will also potentially have half siblings. How would you handle that in terms of remaining anonymous or would you want your child to know then, and how would you feel if your treatment was unsuccessful but a treatment for another couples with your girlfriend's eggs was successful. Obviously your girlfriend's eggs would be matched, rather you and her choosing who they go to.

I'm genuinely interested in how you have navigated this as a couple.

(And I'm sorry about your PCOS, that's really horrible for you, particularly as you wanted to carry yourself.)

Hi,

Just to precede this with I am not talking about ethics surrounding sperm and donor egg donation. I totally appreciate that there is a whole entire separate argument for this, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Yes there was certainly a lot to think about to consider regarding donating her eggs, and it has been something we have had to discuss for a while, but she is the most selfless person I know, and we both understand (ethics aside) that to have a child, we would have to reply on donor sperm; she wants to help couples, regardless of sexuality, medical issues, unexplained fertility to have a child if that is something she is able to do.

We found a group which and we spoke to lots of women and couples who were using donor eggs, and a lot of them had been trying to conceive for years, and suffered so much heartbreak as they had not been able to, or they had undergone some medical treatment in the past which meant they were unable to produce eggs etc, and we knew that someone would really benefit from something we could offer.

You are correct, you aren't able to receive payment for donating eggs and yes, clinics often offer a reduced cycle for donating, however, it does also reduce your chance of success, as you will donate half of the collected eggs to the unknown recipient. So yes, although IVF may be more affordable in the first instance, you may end up having more rounds as fewer eggs etc...

Yep - that was another consideration, but as they would biologically be my girlfriends, I felt that it was her decision mainly, and she had to have a hard think about how she would feel, although I don't think anyone can give a concrete answer till that happens. Her eggs would be matched to a couple, and we would have no say in who they went to which I think, is the correct way of doing it. I mean, obviously there would be elements of envy, as there is for women doing a pregnancy test each month hoping to see a positive result, and seeing a friend announce her pregnancy; we would feel sad it didn't work for us, but also realistic - just because that one egg worked for them, does not mean if we had 'kept' it then we would have had the same result.

I hope some of this makes sense?!

@Circusoflove

Most lesbians end up having IVF rather than IUI because it’s more effective per cycle. IUI is cheaper but if you need multiple rounds it becomes expensive especially as you use a vial of sperm each time. It’s also time consuming. It’s not easy to attend multiple appointments around work.

I expect fertility clinics are quite happy for lesbians to have IVF in preference to IUI as it will be good for their success rates. They’re treating relatively young women with no known fertility issues and top quality sperm.

This is totally correct. I am also sure clinics are happy for the IVF as along with potentially no infertility issues, they also self self fund, which benefits the clinic.

Gosh, I hadn't thought about the implications that you might donate eggs to fund your own treatment and be unsuccessful, while the woman that you donate to is successful.

That would be very difficult.

@Clymene

Gosh, I hadn't thought about the implications that you might donate eggs to fund your own treatment and be unsuccessful, while the woman that you donate to is successful.

That would be very difficult.

Just to clarify, whilst it does make the treatment more affordable, it is not an easy decision to make, and we are not donating eggs purely to fund our IVF (we are fortunate enough to be able to afford treatment and as I have said, we want to 'give back' in some way) but for some couples, this would be the only way to even begin thinking about it... and it would be heartbreaking... but I think if you are doing it only for the financial implications, you will struggle with that outcome more than a couple who choose to do it for altruistic reasons.

Tricky one.

A lesbian couple I know bought sperm off the internet. It was delivered by rapid motor bike. Partner inseminated mum with a turkey baster, and it worked!

They have a lovely son. Story was a hoot one mums’ night out.

I appreciate this won’t work for all and may not be desirable for all, but it does show that lesbians have a lot more options than gay men.

I think surrogacy is a really, really ethically grey area. Even egg harvesting is a bit grey compared to sperm donation.

I hope some of this makes sense?!

Yes it does, and thank you for answering Asnuggly

How would you manage if a half sibling was born for the egg shared eggs, as you are in a closed group and have built friendships I imagine you have those bonds so to be able to sort of 'share' the biological family connection.

Would a child you or your girlfriend gives birth to know their half-sibling?

Also, again if you don't mind me asking, would you encourage the child to find their father? One of the Law Commission's proposals was to lower the age limit restriction to accessing the HFEA register from 18 to 16.

FWIW I know a few families who have done IVF.

A heterosexual couple who did egg sharing were not successful but they were told that the couple they have eggs to were and they had a boy. They already had a daughter and their marriage went through a tricky patch, in fact I would say they didn't really recover but are staying together for the sake of their daughter. Obviously there are multiple reasons why that happened, not just the IVF, but it did bring up a lot of issue.

Another couple, also heterosexual, were very wealthy but the father had sleepy sperm so they used a donor. It could be me reading too much into this but he treats their son quite differently from what I would have expected from him, he is a very sensitive man who works with children but he hasn't really bonded with the child. The mother and the boy are very close.

Lastly, a friend had two kids by IVF. The husband is a total loser and they family are broke. She was sent a letter to ask whether she would donate her frozen eggs to science for a fee (not sure that is legal?), and she was also asked if the remaining eggs on ice could be donated to another couple. His first question? "How much will they pay us?" She declined as she considered her eggs to be potential siblings to her children.

I wish we would call donor eggs or donor sperm what it is, DNA. There are reasons why men aren't allowed to donate more than 10 times.

The pitfalls of Facebook sperm donating groups www.mumsnet.com/Talk/donor_conception/4081633-The-pitfalls-of-Facebook-sperm-donating-groups

My understanding was that egg harvesting is a very involved business with risks involved.

It's really not something I'm involved in but just what I've read.

Also that there's all this business about how many embryos to implant, to maximise success, and with potential thinning out later, as it were.

If it's the case that I've got the wrong end of the stick about this then a lot of what I've read on surrogacy threads (where donor egg is used) is not right?

This isn't about anyone's personal circs - snuggly I wish you all the best and that you have a lovely baby and everyone is fine etc!

And I know when it comes to babies and fertility it's a very emotive topic.

But I don't get how the old fashioned way even if a man isn't directly involved as it were, can possibly be more difficult, risky, it expensive than IVF?

Forgive me if these questions are crass I just don't get it.

Surely even with semen in shorter supply it shouldn't be more expensive than IVF?

Are the clinics putting out a certain message to get their hands on eggs?

This is a total aside from the conversation about whether surrogacy should be sensible on NHS in the name of equality (erm. No?! Not for anyone no matter straight or gay).

It's just really interesting.

Female reproductive material (eggs at just the right stage which happens internally) is just exponentially ..

On c4 news!!!

So held that thought. To continue.

'Female reproductive material (eggs at just the right stage which happens internally) is just exponentially harder (no pun intended) to come by (arrgh) than semen which lets face it, is in plentiful supply.

C4 if any anyone saw it.

No mention of either or both of the women have fertility issues.

Idea that getting some spunk from wherever is outrageous but they'll need some for the IVF... That was sort of bizarrely avoided.

Are we at a point where, then. It's sort of implied that for some fertile young women, the only way they can have babies is to go through egg harvesting and all that entails. Fertilise the eggs in a lab with Unmentionable Fluids. Implant (often more than one I think, just in case). And so on...?

This is all very odd. I found that very odd.

I agree that this if it works will be used as a massive pressure to provide gay male couples with the same 'rights'.

From the sound of it clinics are already asking for 'spare' eggs to help pay. What's the next step there I wonder.

Just having a quick Google.

'Sperm donation can either be altruistic in return for expenses incurred or via our sperm sharing scheme, which enables a couple to receive one funded IVF treatment cycle in exchange for the male partner becoming a registered sperm donor (excluding drugs, screening and HFEA fee).'

So they are incentivising men to donate as well, by offering free (ish) IVF...

This then is all about business. Commercialisation. Etc.

On the other hand. Couples are being exploited by random men prepared to give semen but only in return for xyz up to and including natural insemination ie getting to fuck the woman.

So this is where we arrive.

Equal rights meaning something very different for men and women.

Invasive and risky procedures being touted as the best method for women who aren't it don't want to have sex with men.

Incentives to hand over genetic material- eggs/ sperm.

An underground system operating where those who can't afford all that are potentially coerced whether financially or otherwise. Lesbian women into being fucked by men. Nice.

I know I'm cynical but that's what I'm seeing.

I can absolutely see the argument for lesbians to have access to ivf.

With tht whole surrogacy thing I feel like the nhs should have a duty of care towards the surrogate mother if they are paying for it. Which in turn make a me wonder how they can sufficiently police if a woman is being taken advantage of or not....

I don't think IVF should be in the NHS at all

I know I'm cynical but that's what I'm seeing.

I see it too Gerbil, I see it too.

I feel like the nhs should have a duty of care towards the surrogate mother if they are paying for it.

Essentially the ruling earlier this year from Lady Hale means that this is already happening. Compensation awarded for multiple surrogacy arrangements are to be paid for by NHS funding, only the surrogate mother/s will be US-based. This was because the woman who was awarded the compensation (in addition to what had already been agreed in a previous case of negligence), didn't want to have to have a relationship with a surrogate mother, she just wanted to buy their services and this isn't permitted in the U.K.

So, as explained below, the NHS is funding what is basically illegal surrogacy. The NHS has no duty of care as the contract will be between the commissioning parents, the woman and her husband and the woman who agrees to offer her reproductive system up for cash, but the money is from the U.K. government, basically tax-payers money.

www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2020/06/63958/

Interesting world where it seems unreasonable and even grotesque for a healthy woman to have to have sex with a man to get pregnant.

Feels like all the concerns are about adult wants and needs and not centred around the children who are to be born.

@EmpressoftheMundane

would you suggest a woman in a heterosexual relationship have sex with a different bloke if her partner had low sperm count/male factor infertility?

I’m sorry, but I do find that suggestion quite offensive... I’m usually pretty easy going but I don’t appreciate comments like that as it feels like an attack on my sexuality.

I don’t think anyone should ever be compelled to have sexual activity with anyone.

I don’t think anyone is entitled to a child.

I know how babies are made.

@OhHolyJesus

I hope some of this makes sense?!

Yes it does, and thank you for answering Asnuggly

How would you manage if a half sibling was born for the egg shared eggs, as you are in a closed group and have built friendships I imagine you have those bonds so to be able to sort of 'share' the biological family connection.

Would a child you or your girlfriend gives birth to know their half-sibling?

Also, again if you don't mind me asking, would you encourage the child to find their father? One of the Law Commission's proposals was to lower the age limit restriction to accessing the HFEA register from 18 to 16.

No problem - I’m happy to answer questions about it all, as I genuinely don’t think it is something anyone thinks of till they’re in that situation.

I don’t think we would set out to find the recipients, but we would be open I imagine. I don’t know about having our child know their half sibling - we haven’t discussed that in much detail and I know the clinic can’t give details on who receives any donation... but I think we would be honest with our children and certainly give them the option to ask questions etc...

I wouldn’t encourage it then to find their father and neither would I discourage. Again, I would be totally open and honest with any child we have, at an age appropriate level, and support any decision they made... I think there would be pros and cons to finding the identify of the sperm donor... men do get a minimal financial compensation for donating sorry, so I imagine some may do it for that reason (much the same as why some women choose to donate, or be a surrogate) and I don’t think it would be obvious from their information we get.

@EmpressoftheMundane

I don’t think anyone should ever be compelled to have sexual activity with anyone.

I don’t think anyone is entitled to a child.

I know how babies are made.

I absolutely agree... nobody is entitled to a child, but there are ways which people can conceive...

I’m interested by your comment however that a woman should have sex with a man in order to get pregnant... thus omitting any chance for same sex families? And also saying that if a heterosexual couple can’t conceive naturally then the woman could just try again with a different man as that is the only accepted way?

Because although I am not entitled to have a child, nor is it my right to have a child, I would love to start a family, and being gay shouldn’t stop me.

Or have I misunderstood?

@asnugglysnerd

An underground system operating where those who can't afford all that are potentially coerced whether financially or otherwise. Lesbian women into being fucked by men. Nice.

You come across as saying that you are entitled to a baby. And, if we don’t pay for you to have it on your own terms, it’s tantamount to sexual coercion.

I disagree. The NHS treats ill health. Being gay isn’t an illness. It’s an inconvenience in this case.

The incentives to 'donate' eggs or sperm in return for IVF bothers me.

The idea that IVF for lesbians where there are no fertility issues, is a better option than using donor sperm seems. Sorry. Bonkers. Semen is not in short supply. I understand that the change in the law put men off donating. Which the clinics are seemingly trying to offset by offering free stuff to men who will do so... But I still don't get it.

And again no offence to anyone but I can't believe we've somehow reached a point where it's seen as the natural solution for a woman who wants a baby and is fertile but is not in a couple with a man should go for IVF? My understanding is that the egg harvesting is gruelling and not without risk. And a lengthy process. Then the implantation/ how many/ that sort of thing.

How is it not easier to um. Do it the old way with a vial of the necessary or 2 during fertile points?

Forgive me if I'm missing something but the whole thing seems like a massive drive to move the whole reproductive... Area? Function? Into a medicalised, involved, expensive, business. And I use business in the sense of money making.

To move it away from what it is ie a pretty bloody basic thing, the most basic thing as a species we do.

The human right to a family life is being leveraged in situations it was never meant to cover.

The science that was invented to help in certain situations, even back then to mixed feelings. Is being used in situations where it is not necessary. But may be desirable. EG to remove any genetic link between a woman who acts as a surrogate and the baby. (A very male view, that the genetics is the only link and the woman is a vessel)....

I know couples who have used ivf. I know some who have had religious relatives telling them it's wrong. I know a lesbian couple who used it. And they are all lovely and their babies are gorgeous and it's all happy.

But. There are ethical considerations. Concerns about exploitation of people both male and female to provide genetic material in return for services. There have to be question marks around how IVF could ever be seen as easier or more cost effective than insemination? That feels really odd tbh.

Even before we get to the idea that equality means surrogate mothers need to be made available...

And given that, from this thread and a quick Google. It seems that clinics are aok with saying we'll give you some free stuff if you give us some eggs/ sperm... I mean that's already pretty extreme isn't it?