LGBT couple's petition to get "equal" fertility treatment

[GlummyMcGlummerson]

An LGBT couple have launched a petition for gay and lesbian couples get the same rights as heterosexual couples when it comes to fertility treatment. Currently most heterosexual couples, after 2 years of being unable to conceive, would likely qualify for 2-3 rounds of IVF (depending where you live) on the NHS. This LGBT couple think it's discrimination that they don't get the same right.

My lesbian friend has asked me to sign it.

I'm not signing it simply because I don't think it's discrimination because heterosexual couples don't need to use an outside source for their conception when offered IVF. The outside source being an actual human being.

I'm actually pretty furious that ANYONE thinks it's their god given right to use a man's sperm and even more furious that they think they'd be entitled to a woman's egg and body (with men using a surrogate). Do these people realise men and women are human, and that there'd be implications for the baby? My friend is donor conceived and has gone through hell and back WRT (accidentally) finding her birth father, and having the complications that brings (and sadly the eventual rejection) 1 all of which is common now thanks to the likes of ancestry DNA. She always says she wishes her mum, adoptive dad and bio dad would have thought of her and the impact on her when they were going through all this.

Assuming that there was "equality", and gay and lesbian couples qualified for free fertility treatment - where are all the sperm/ donors and surrogates going to come from? And how will the NHS take care of them and the children they conceive? Sperm donation is way more tightly regulated than it used to be, thank god, due to the impact on those conceived - how will this all be regulated and who will foot the Bill? To me, it's just a short cut to normalising surrogacy and creating a market for commercial surrogacy.

Equality doesn't always means "you get exactly the same" especially when circumstances are so different.

https://www.change.org/p/matt-hancock-stop-discriminating-against-lgbtq-families-in-the-nhs?utmcontent=cllsharecopy254207899en-GB%3A0&recruitedbyyid=5e4a1470-278c-11eb-8dba-0dfc9da35170&utmsource=shareepetition&utmmedium=copylink&utmmcampaign=psfcombooshare_initial

Should single women be entitled to IVF on the NHS? What not? What's the difference?

@excitedemmi

I think the easy answer here is probably one of equity (if the NHS budget allowed) where straight, gay, single people all get healthcare for any fertility issues they have (PCOS, endometriosis, blocked tubes etc.) but the NHS doesn't provide the social issues of providing surrogates/sperm/eggs.

I agree.

And where budgets are tight (as in everywhere, always) then the NHS should at least cover the tests and investigations to identify infertility even if they don't cover the fertility treatments themselves, not least because infertility can be a side effect of broader health problems (PCOS, DSDs, infections) and it's part of their duty of care.

Our CCG stopped all IVF a few years ago: they'll do the briefest of investigations, but as per PP, after that we were on our own. we managed to fund it ourselves thankfully. At the same time, a friend of mine in another area did receive three rounds on the NHS.

I can see why some people don't think fertility treatment should be available on the NHS: it definitely shouldn't be such a postcode lottery. I suspect that if this petition succeeds then the NHS will simply pull funding from everyone.

I think of the main issues is that donor sperm is so expensive, the way I understand it is that you cannot just obtain donor sperm through a clinic and inseminate yourself, you have to undergo costly private IUI, and 12 rounds of that before you can receive any help as a gay couple.

So unless a lesbian couple are very wealthy or very lucky to get pregnant first try they are priced out of having a baby through no fault of their own, because NHS policy expects them to have sex with a man for a year or pay thousands upon thousands of pounds to have 12 rounds of IUI. So in that sense I can see their point, however, I think this particular petition is probably a result of society and the NHS treating having a baby as a right and not being able to conceive as an illness that the it needs to cure, rather than just an unfortunate fact of life. Imo you either fund assisted conception for all infertile couples regardless of cause, or you don’t fund it at all and just treat the medical problems that cause infertility.

In Wales ivf is offered to lesbian couples I personally know a couple who had an immediate referral no wait i on the other hand was three years working my way through the system was refused funding at one point and ended up paying myself.

@BooFuckingHoo2

I agree that if you say it’s tough luck for lesbians not wanting to have sex with men then you could say it’s tough luck for straight couples who can’t conceive. It’s not my fault I’m gay anymore than it’s someone’s fault they can’t get pregnant, the end result in both situations is the same, no kids, which according to most people on here is not a right anyway.

This with bells on. For this reason I don’t believe IVF should be available on the NHS at all unfortunately.

I do say it's tough luck for heterosexual couples too. I wouldn't fund any infertility treatment.

There's a huge difference between a lesbian couple having ivf using donor sperm for one of them to conceive a child, and a gay or trans person or couple using a surrogate.

I'm sure surrogates aren't provided on the NHS for straight couples either

I should add I don’t support NHS funded surrogacy for anyone regardless of sex or sexuality.

Does your friend also campaign to have the state fund organ purchases from people who are desperate for money?

If the state funds surrogacy for gay (male) couples, some desperate young women will take it up. Same way they’d sell a kidney if that was legal.

Your friend is petitioning for the right for gay men to exploit the bodies of poor and desperate women, at the taxpayer’s expense. Yuk.

DidoLamenting, you'd leave sufferers of endometriosis, say, or pcs untreated by the NHS? Really? Why?

PCOS

Do agree that there is no "right" to have a baby, but that fertility medical problems should still be treated.

To all those thinking that the NHS is handing IVF out to straight couples - this isn't the case, and straight couples are also having to self-fund. We got 1 round on the NHS and have self-funded 4 rounds. One of those self-funded rounds I got at a major discount for donating some of my eggs, which is kind of exploitative in itself as we were desperate to find ways to make our IVF cheaper, but also, is it clear to me that if women were allowed to be paid for egg donation/surrogacy we would just be exploiting the poorer in our society, which I don't want to do! And I don't want to exploit women in general for that matter!

There is no equivalence between getting hold of some sperm and getting hold of a woman to carry and birth a child then hand it over.

The 'inequality' here is between something utterly fundamental- the difference in male and female roles in reproduction.

Out of interest I'm confused as to why a lesbian couple would need IVF (unless the woman who was to bear the child had fertility issues). This seems to be mentioned a lot on the thread way more than sperm?

Straight women also use sperm donation. Can't see a good argument not to allow lesbians to do the same.

Egg donation is riskier to the health of the donating woman, and needs tighter regulation on that basis.

Surrogacy is the most dangerous option to the woman's health. I find it unethical and would rather see it banned, on the basis that a whole, living child is being bought and sold, and we should not trade in humans.

Sorry; can't get worked up about sperm. So far as I know, there aren't hordes of rampaging lesbians stealing sperm from unwilling men. They get it from sperm banks, like other women, and use their own uterus to gestate their own child,who is not separated from them at birth, and whose outcomes, on average, appear to be really quite fab.

I'm open to arguments against donor conception and already disagree with surrogacy, but any such arguments apply to straight couples too.

@NewlyGranny

DidoLamenting, you'd leave sufferers of endometriosis, say, or pcs untreated by the NHS? Really? Why?

Endometriosis is not treated just help someone get pregnant.

@NewlyGranny

DidoLamenting, you'd leave sufferers of endometriosis, say, or pcs untreated by the NHS? Really? Why?

Your question is really odd. I do not think the NHS should pay for any treatment where the sole purpose is to create a pregnancy- whether that's IVF or surrogacy.

Treating endometriosis might have the effect of making pregnancy more likely but there are many reasons why a woman would want treatment without necessarily having the aim of getting pregnant.

@NiceGerbil

There is no equivalence between getting hold of some sperm and getting hold of a woman to carry and birth a child then hand it over.

The 'inequality' here is between something utterly fundamental- the difference in male and female roles in reproduction.

Out of interest I'm confused as to why a lesbian couple would need IVF (unless the woman who was to bear the child had fertility issues). This seems to be mentioned a lot on the thread way more than sperm?

I mention IVF a few times as that is the only way my girlfriend and I will be able to conceive.

I have PCOS and do not ovulate, so we will do reciprocal IVF where I carry and we use my partners eggs.

Though I’m sure there will be some opinions as to the ethics surrounding it, that is going to be the most cost effective way with the best chance of success (aside from my girlfriend carrying, which she has no desire to do)

Some lesbian couples will use IUI, others IVF, others reciprocal IVF etc.

Black wave yes agree.

I think you took my point the wrong way maybe.

If there's a woman wanting to have a baby and she is fertile then sperm is all she needs. I didn't understand why there is so much talk of IVF for lesbian couples on the thread. If they need it then it's essentially the same as for a heterosexual woman ie fertility issues? Am I missing something?

@Mumoftwoinprimary

What happens with straight couples when the man doesn’t produce any sperm?

What happens with straight couples if the woman had to have a hysterectomy?

We were in this situation. I had ivf using donor sperm . Unfortunately my dd has a lot of health problems and as we can't trace her medical history through the donor it has made things harder for her.

Not an odd question at all, really, DidoLamenting. Endometriosis is one of the commonest causes of female infertility and it's often diagnosed in the course of infertility investigations.

If the NHS stopped investigating and treating infertility, a great many cases would go undiagnosed, as would other conditions. I can't begin to imagine why you think fertility investigations should fall outside the remit of the NHS. After all, they help if your respiratory or digestive or circulatory systems are malfunctioning - why on earth should the reproductive system be treated differently? That's odd, if you like.

This petition is very misguided, but bear in mind the 2 women who have launched this are full time ‘influencers’ so there is an element of being keen for publicity for any reason.

Sorry for the whataboutery in advance... but what about a woman with an abnormal shaped uterus or a large fibroid preventing conception, an incompetent cervix or sticky blood causing recurrent miscarriage? Could the nhs refuse treatment for these conditions if the purpose was to allow the woman to achieve and maintain pregnancy? We’re on shaky ground if we do not consider reproductive organ and endocrine dysfunction less deserving of treatment than other body systems. That is not the same as assisted conception.

I agree with you.

Sorry for the double negative... I meant ‘as’ deserving rather than ‘less’

There's a huge difference between a lesbian couple having ivf using donor sperm for one of them to conceive a child

Unless there are female fertility problems, a lesbian couple don't need ivf and I don't think it should be routinely offered. They would need artificial insemination, but I don't think that needs to be done on the NHS unless the male donor/co parent has sperm issues.