LGBT couple's petition to get "equal" fertility treatment

[GlummyMcGlummerson]

An LGBT couple have launched a petition for gay and lesbian couples get the same rights as heterosexual couples when it comes to fertility treatment. Currently most heterosexual couples, after 2 years of being unable to conceive, would likely qualify for 2-3 rounds of IVF (depending where you live) on the NHS. This LGBT couple think it's discrimination that they don't get the same right.

My lesbian friend has asked me to sign it.

I'm not signing it simply because I don't think it's discrimination because heterosexual couples don't need to use an outside source for their conception when offered IVF. The outside source being an actual human being.

I'm actually pretty furious that ANYONE thinks it's their god given right to use a man's sperm and even more furious that they think they'd be entitled to a woman's egg and body (with men using a surrogate). Do these people realise men and women are human, and that there'd be implications for the baby? My friend is donor conceived and has gone through hell and back WRT (accidentally) finding her birth father, and having the complications that brings (and sadly the eventual rejection) 1 all of which is common now thanks to the likes of ancestry DNA. She always says she wishes her mum, adoptive dad and bio dad would have thought of her and the impact on her when they were going through all this.

Assuming that there was "equality", and gay and lesbian couples qualified for free fertility treatment - where are all the sperm/ donors and surrogates going to come from? And how will the NHS take care of them and the children they conceive? Sperm donation is way more tightly regulated than it used to be, thank god, due to the impact on those conceived - how will this all be regulated and who will foot the Bill? To me, it's just a short cut to normalising surrogacy and creating a market for commercial surrogacy.

Equality doesn't always means "you get exactly the same" especially when circumstances are so different.

https://www.change.org/p/matt-hancock-stop-discriminating-against-lgbtq-families-in-the-nhs?utmcontent=cllsharecopy254207899en-GB%3A0&recruitedbyyid=5e4a1470-278c-11eb-8dba-0dfc9da35170&utmsource=shareepetition&utmmedium=copylink&utmmcampaign=psfcombooshare_initial

Presumably couples for whom IVF doesn't work would also be entitled to an NHS surrogate?

Good point, it sounds outrageous when put that way.

ah, so the reason I am not understanding it is because it does not make much sense

feel better now

Geez, reduced fertility part and parcel of a gay relationships. Equal rights to ferility treatment. I wouldnt sign that petition.

@Aesopfable

Straight couples don’t just get three cycles of IVF straightaway when they have been unsuccessful for two years.

I have seen your response to my last post too... I didn't really say that it was automatic, and I am well aware of the tests etc that anyone who has unsuccessfully conceives (naturally for 2 years, IUI etc) will have to go through...

Some will be given 3 rounds, dependent on tests etc. Some may be given 1 round. Some might be given IUI, some straight to IVF. There is no one set 'allocation'

I think that Whitney and Megan have well meaning ideas, but I don't see any point at which a line could be drawn, if any different to the current legislation...

Like I said, I am gay, and my partner and I are starting the process, however we have had to find a cost effective way for what we want to do, which is donating eggs to reduced cost.

It isn't an option for everyone, I am well aware, and I do feel 'put out' that I have to front so much money initially, but neither do I believe I should automatically be given help to conceive, and I 100% believe that my girlfriend and I should pay for sperm etc.

Some will be given 3 rounds, dependent on tests etc. Some may be given 1 round. Some might be given IUI, some straight to IVF. There is no one set 'allocation'

There is a set maximum, though, and it varies by trust with nothing to do with tests or suitability.

My NHS trust will never ever ever fund more than a single IVF cycle per couple, assuming you meet all conditions. That's their policy, no wriggle room possible. They haven't ever offered 3 cycles (acc to the memory of the consultant I asked).

The NHS trust 5 miles north of me does offer 3 cycles of IVF. That's the postcode lottery someone mentioned upthread

The first time I read the petition, I thought it was a bit muddled, but now I've re-read it (and read the template letter for the first time), I'm not sure if it's muddled or dishonest.

From the template letter:

[IUI cycles] can cost anything from a few thousand pounds to £30,000 or more. Same-sex male couples face even higher barriers when paying for a surrogate which can cost upwards of £40,000. In contrast, the majority of heterosexual couples are required to have unprotected sex for two years which, whilst a long wait, is free.

This is clear discrimination, constitutes a ‘gay tax’ on sexual orientation and particularly impacts those on low-incomes or from minority backgrounds.

If this is clear discrimination, who is carrying out the discrimination? The NHS doesn't have anything to do with people conceiving through PIV sex - that predates the origin of the health service somewhat. The NHS offers (in principle, anyway) assistance for couples who are struggling to conceive on their own.

This basically boils down to an insistence that the taxpayer should fund IVF/IUI/ICI for anyone who asks - and goodness knows what the insistence is for gay men (or even just single straight men).

I'm going to try and take the charitable line of thought and say that I genuinely don't think they've thought properly about the biological process of reproduction at all.

Straight couples don’t just get three cycles of IVF straightaway

In some places such as where we lived there were no free IVF cycles at all for anyone.

After a year of trying we were given blood and sperm analysis and an internal scan.

A clear medical issue was identified and we were advised only IVF with isci would be effective.

However our health board didn't fund a single cycle of IVF or any other reproductive treatment for anyone.

Single mother here who went the sperm donor route. Paid for it all myself through several rounds and a termination on the way.

It was not an infertility issue (or didn’t start that way). I don’t agree that this is a discrimination issue at all. It’s not the state’s job to fulfil the every wish of every person in the land.

But since straight refers to 2 people of the ‘same gender’ and gay couples are 2 people of ‘different genders’ then none of it actually discriminates on the basis of sexuality anyway, since a straight couple could be 2 people who were assigned male at birth, a lesbian couple could be someone assigned male at birth and the other female who are capable of naturally making a baby...

@uniquehornsonly

Some will be given 3 rounds, dependent on tests etc. Some may be given 1 round. Some might be given IUI, some straight to IVF. There is no one set 'allocation'

There is a set maximum, though, and it varies by trust with nothing to do with tests or suitability.

My NHS trust will never ever ever fund more than a single IVF cycle per couple, assuming you meet all conditions. That's their policy, no wriggle room possible. They haven't ever offered 3 cycles (acc to the memory of the consultant I asked).

The NHS trust 5 miles north of me does offer 3 cycles of IVF. That's the postcode lottery someone mentioned upthread

Yep. I am aware.

And quite frankly, I believe that making a uniform criteria for NHS funded fertility treatment is more of a priority than funding fertility treatment...

Like I mentioned earlier, I believe parts of their petition are more credible than others, and despite being a gay woman, I wouldn't expect to be handed fertility treatment... I would also always expect to pay for the donor sperm...

I think what they are suggesting helps only gay women... Yes, it is my choice to have a child but I appreciate that to enable this to happen, I have to save up and pay for it...

@thanksgivingchi

Straight couples don’t just get three cycles of IVF straightaway

In some places such as where we lived there were no free IVF cycles at all for anyone.

After a year of trying we were given blood and sperm analysis and an internal scan.

A clear medical issue was identified and we were advised only IVF with isci would be effective.

However our health board didn't fund a single cycle of IVF or any other reproductive treatment for anyone.

Sorry you had to go through it... So despite them identifying a clear medical issue, your trust didn't offer any fertility treatment?

I think this is more of a priority than what the petition is asking for...

Make a uniformed set of criteria and IUI/IVF treatment nationwide.

I’m a lesbian, we will be going down this route to conceive, I see their point, but then if you offer this to gay women, do you have to offer it to single women and gay men? Where would the line be drawn? I don’t think the NHS could afford it tbh. I would argue that the nhs should not fund fertility treatment for anyone if no one has a “right to have a child” then everyone is treated the same regardless of sex or sexuality.

There was a total ban on funding IVF from our health board.
It mattered not one jot that NICE guidelines talked about three cycles.
Our MP was supportive but powerless to change anything.

We were lucky we had enough savings for a private cycle and I have two (mostly) lovely dc.

But I really think the people setting up this petition don't have a clue what they are talking about.

@asnugglysnerd I am inclined to agree that medical issues should be sorted out first before expanding treatment into other areas.

@Elsiebear90

I’m a lesbian, we will be going down this route to conceive, I see their point, but then if you offer this to gay women, do you have to offer it to single women and gay men? Where would the line be drawn? I don’t think the NHS could afford it tbh. I would argue that the nhs should not fund fertility treatment for anyone if no one has a “right to have a child” then everyone is treated the same regardless of sex or sexuality.

That is what I don't get.. where is the line drawn? And how can gay men benefit either when it would explicitly require a surrogate etc...

We can't afford to do IVF the way we want (which is reciprocal IVF, as I want to carry and will use my partners eggs) so we have had to do research to find the most cost effective way.

I wouldn't expect the NHS to fund it either.

This feels like more of a social issue rather than a medical issue. Babies are produced from a sperm and egg getting together. If you are gay or single or a-sexual and not having sex with a partner..... these are not medical issues that require intervention.... they are a completely natural way of not getting pregnant (like doing anything else that would not result in pregnancy).

It is an interesting thought that if surrogacy was to be provided to gay men, then for "equality" it would also need to be provided to single people, straight couples who can't conceive, and people that just don't fancy being pregnant. Really have no idea where these surrogates would come from.

@thanksgivingchi

There was a total ban on funding IVF from our health board. It mattered not one jot that NICE guidelines talked about three cycles. Our MP was supportive but powerless to change anything.

We were lucky we had enough savings for a private cycle and I have two (mostly) lovely dc.

But I really think the people setting up this petition don't have a clue what they are talking about.

@asnugglysnerd I am inclined to agree that medical issues should be sorted out first before expanding treatment into other areas.

But struggling to conceive is heart breaking, regardless of you having children already, and it must be infuriating that in some places, you can be given 3 rounds, whereas 5 miles down the road, you are not entitled to anything at all.

This is more of a priority than the petition... because as a gay woman, yes I may have to spend money initially and it isn't easy to think of the finances, but if I successfully conceive then it would be worth it, and if I can't then I would then be able to access fertility treatment in the same way as a straight couple requiring it... it may be 1 round, or 3, or none at all, but it would be the same... no discrimination...

In my opinion anyway...

You could argue - Why should anybody get fertility treatment?

Oh you're a lesbian and don't have access to sperm from a partner - fuck you

Oh you're straight and infertile? World has enough kids. Fuck you too.

Hurts, doesn't it?

Thanks, I wasn't clear enough I was lucky enough to be able to fund the IVF and therefore became pregnant.
Without being able to self fund IVF we wouldn't have become parents.
We had friends who couldn't afford to self fund and therefore had no opportunity to conceive.
I think all medical issues should be treated equally and after that all social issues should also be treated equally.

After 2 years of trying the NHS funded the tests to find if there was a medical reason. There was and we were told our only hope of conceiving would be through IVF icsi but they wouldn't fund it, we had to pay ourselves. It's just not correct to say heterosexual couples get 3 rounds of IVF.

Lesbians having access to sperm donors is not an equivalent proposition to gay men having access to surrogates. Any language that implicitly equates the two is papering over a lot of human rights issues

Absolutely!

I tend to think surrogacy should never ever be allowed. The use of a woman as a vessel is offensive.

NHS fertility treatment is designed to treat infertility which is caused by reproductive organs not functioning correctly ie a medical problem.

It is not to treat infertility caused by sexual orientation.

I agree that if you say it’s tough luck for lesbians not wanting to have sex with men then you could say it’s tough luck for straight couples who can’t conceive. It’s not my fault I’m gay anymore than it’s someone’s fault they can’t get pregnant, the end result in both situations is the same, no kids, which according to most people on here is not a right anyway.

A gay women would then have to donate her eggs, and a gay man likewise... that may not be something they wish to do...

Why? To help cover IVF costs? Isn't artificial insemination an option first? And then IUI or IVF if they don't work?

I guess what iggypoppie means is that it could be a solution in some ways for couples/people who can't have a child in a heterosexual relationship to manage to create a co-parenting relationship with an opposite sex friend. Something like Charlie Condue's family, where he and a single female friend chose to have two children, who are co-parented through shared custody by him and his husband and their mother. It's a tough situation to navigate though, because I'm not sure that shared custody and having to always find compromises with another parent who you don't live with, is anybody's ideal.

DW has a genetic condition and was on the waiting list for IVF before we even met. We're not moving forward with it atm, but we do get either two or three rounds. Free.

I agree that if you say it’s tough luck for lesbians not wanting to have sex with men then you could say it’s tough luck for straight couples who can’t conceive. It’s not my fault I’m gay anymore than it’s someone’s fault they can’t get pregnant, the end result in both situations is the same, no kids, which according to most people on here is not a right anyway.

This with bells on. For this reason I don’t believe IVF should be available on the NHS at all unfortunately.