LGBT couple's petition to get "equal" fertility treatment

[GlummyMcGlummerson]

An LGBT couple have launched a petition for gay and lesbian couples get the same rights as heterosexual couples when it comes to fertility treatment. Currently most heterosexual couples, after 2 years of being unable to conceive, would likely qualify for 2-3 rounds of IVF (depending where you live) on the NHS. This LGBT couple think it's discrimination that they don't get the same right.

My lesbian friend has asked me to sign it.

I'm not signing it simply because I don't think it's discrimination because heterosexual couples don't need to use an outside source for their conception when offered IVF. The outside source being an actual human being.

I'm actually pretty furious that ANYONE thinks it's their god given right to use a man's sperm and even more furious that they think they'd be entitled to a woman's egg and body (with men using a surrogate). Do these people realise men and women are human, and that there'd be implications for the baby? My friend is donor conceived and has gone through hell and back WRT (accidentally) finding her birth father, and having the complications that brings (and sadly the eventual rejection) 1 all of which is common now thanks to the likes of ancestry DNA. She always says she wishes her mum, adoptive dad and bio dad would have thought of her and the impact on her when they were going through all this.

Assuming that there was "equality", and gay and lesbian couples qualified for free fertility treatment - where are all the sperm/ donors and surrogates going to come from? And how will the NHS take care of them and the children they conceive? Sperm donation is way more tightly regulated than it used to be, thank god, due to the impact on those conceived - how will this all be regulated and who will foot the Bill? To me, it's just a short cut to normalising surrogacy and creating a market for commercial surrogacy.

Equality doesn't always means "you get exactly the same" especially when circumstances are so different.


https://www.change.org/p/matt-hancock-stop-discriminating-against-lgbtq-families-in-the-nhs?utmcontent=cllsharecopy254207899en-GB%3A0&recruitedbyyid=5e4a1470-278c-11eb-8dba-0dfc9da35170&utmsource=shareepetition&utmmedium=copylink&utmmcampaign=psfcombooshare_initial

[NiceGerbil]

That is incredibly interesting Jesus.

[Delphinium20]

It shows a clear, steady increase, year on year from the year before the law changed to 2016. The law change has had no negative impact on the numbers of men donating their sperm. The numbers have increased.

Any idea why? With DNA testing like 23 and me, no sperm donor could remain anonymous even from OTHER relatives (siblings, parents, aunts/uncles), let alone the right for the child to know who their bio father is.

[Circusoflove]

I could guess at the reasons. Increased awareness of donation as a possibility. Some men like the idea of sowing their seed and gathering multiple children. A sort of god complex. Knowing they can identified as such makes this motive more powerful.

[OhHolyJesus]

Here is a recent example of such an example you mention Circus

www.mirror.co.uk/news/us-news/sperm-donor-150-kids-fathers-22768153

I have read many similar stories. No one stops teen like this, they give fake names and as you can see fly around the world and there is no international register.

One story I read was where the man did a mixture of insemination and the old fashioned way of straight sex. No tests. I'll see if I can find the link. He sounded like an absolute gem I can tell you. He thought his sleek was superior as it always resulted in pregnancy.

[OhHolyJesus]

Not teen sorry, I meant to write 'men'.

[OhHolyJesus]

Sorry sorry

I meant sperm not sleek!

[FannyCann]

The clinics are continually providing financial incentives to spend more or do unnecessary procedures and it's always all about profit,

I'm afraid clinics are deeply unethical and all about the profit.
Fertility doctors are amongst the highest paid doctors.
Care Fertility are big providers, check out the prices on the website - truly eye watering. In many places, including my local hospital, if one is eligible for NHS funding for treatment, this is provided by the local private clinic (Care Fertility in my locality), the NHS contracts out. But when there are problems such as OHSS the NHS steps in to sort it out. It is more difficult to monitor what the clinics are up to as, being private, they are not subject to FOI requests, the only oversight is via the HFEA.

When clinics quote success rates of 20% or 30%, that means 70-80% are unsuccessful. I believe they continue to offer treatment to people who they know full well haven't a hope of getting pregnant, but the fees from these women maintain the profits.

I have personal knowledge of one such case, an unfortunate woman with serious abdominal and pelvic pathology. Anyone could work out that 1. She would never have a successful pregnancy and 2. The IVF process was likely to be risky given her poor health and particular problems.
She was entitled to NHS funding and had the treatment, and promptly developed OHSS, with severe problems that exacerbated her significant existing problems, as well as the swollen ovaries causing renal problems due to compressing the ureters and requiring emergency treatment for this. Her surgeon was singularly unimpressed to put it politely.

I do have great sympathy for her, and understand her desire to try everything but it was always going to be risky with next to zero chance of success. Wouldn't it be fairer to be honest?

In the USA ethics committees have given permission for fertility clinics to treat women who they know will never get pregnant, on the grounds it is good for their mental health to know they have tried everything.

It is discussed on this very interesting podcast (I recommend listening to the whole thing) around 28 minutes in.


podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/venus-rising/id1481872967?i=1000456653311

[FannyCann]

I'm afraid Cattenberg very likely did have unnecessary treatment, not only boosting profits but also improving the success rates that the clinic quotes.
Although you shouldn't feel bad about it Cattenberg - obviously I don't know your age or medical history but it sounds as if you didn't have any presenting problems. However I wasn't aware how much IUI costs and for a healthy woman IVF is likely to have very good success rates as you proved, so maybe there is an argument for going straight for it rather than risking spending a lot on repeated IUI with the accompanying disappointments.

[asnugglysnerd]

@FannyCann I don’t know if you’ve seen my early posts, but my girlfriend and I will be going straight to IVF. I have PCOS and don’t ovulate but want to carry the baby, so we will be using my girlfriends eggs.

It’s the right decision for us, but chances are, if my girlfriend was going to carry (her own eggs) we would do a few rounds of IUI as she has no unknown fertility problems - the only thing is, 1 round of IUI is a fair cost still, and akin to unprotected intercourse once... and realistically, how many people does it take only that 1 time? So in that respect, going straight to IVF with the higher chance of success each round, is going to be the option for people who have limited funds.

[FannyCann]

I'm sure it's a sensible decision asnugglysnerd , there are many factors to weigh up and financial considerations will be a part of that. It's a shame the NHS doesn't routinely offer one or two rounds of IUI before referring for IVF as that would be a pragmatic relatively low cost option which would work for many women. (Maybe they do in some areas where treatment is still offered in house on the NHS, I don't know.). I also don't know the success rates for IUI but again there will be many variables. I think for women with no health/fertility problems it's quite straightforward but statistics are probably skewed by women who are not the best candidates for it.
I've had dealings with a small number of women whose husbands/partners froze sperm ahead of cancer treatment and IUI was treatment of choice which worked.

Fertility is complex and a sizeable proportion - I think it's about 1/3, happy to be corrected - is so called "unexplained" infertility with no obvious cause.

I was having a discussion about this with colleagues the other day. We all had tales of women who had years of infertility, investigations and treatments and when they gave it all up they promptly got pregnant.

I well remember one woman who was 40ish with teenage adopted children, her husband went on a work trip to the Far East and brought back a little brass fertility statuette. She said it was a bit dull so she gave it a polish and next thing she knew she was pregnant! A year later she was back again - that fertility ornament had lost its sheen and needed another polish. The consultant asked if her husband could fetch him a box full.

A common trope we all had cases to cite was spending money previously saved for IVF on the holiday of a lifetime instead, drunken rampant sex an essential part. One elderly lady told me how she didn't drink normally and still couldn't remember what they had got up to that night but whatever it was it worked.

Humans are mammals after all, and lots of mammals don't get pregnant when conditions aren't favourable. I think stress must surely play a part with women. But it's impossible to research and advice to go away, relax and get drunk probably wouldn't be well received! Also not helpful for same sex couples obv.

Sorry for the derail!

[excitedemmi]

Wow @FannyCann - so do you think those with unexplained infertility for years haven't been on holiday or got drunk that entire time? And they were stressed non-stop for years? It is, unfortunately, very much a luck thing and some of those that have given up trying will have been trying for years and got pregnant after many years of being unlucky. (Or they may never get lucky, and thus why people go down the medical route to help lower that uncertainty).

I also think that fertility and pregnancy are just areas of health that aren't researched enough and so there could be actual fertility issues for those with "unexplained infertility" but we don't know enough about fertility to actually diagnose. A bit like Sudden Infant Death Syndrome/Cot Death - there are probably actual reasons these babies have died, but very little research done in to it.

[Aesopfable]

I was having a discussion about this with colleagues the other day. We all had tales of women who had years of infertility, investigations and treatments and when they gave it all up they promptly got pregnant.

This happens to some women but not all. Many never have children but have to come to terms with their infertility instead. I do not think it is very helpful to tell these stories to women struggling with their infertility. It stops them being able to move on as there is always the hope because the doctor said ‘if we stop trying so hard it may happen, it has happened to loads before us’. Life is put on hold when you are trying to get pregnant, plans are left ‘just in case we are pregnant by then’, careers are not progressed (better not change job or I will lose rights to maternity pay). Lots of women in the context of the many going through a fertility clinic may not represent much individual chance at all.

[NewlyGranny]

FannyCann, if I had a pound for every tale like this I was told in my 7 year fertility struggle, it would have funded multiple IVF attempts!

The number of 'unexlained' infertility cases continues to diminish as our understanding of human fertility advances. Just because nobody can put a name to whatever is preventing conception, it doesn't mean the cause is in anybody's head; it just means we don't yet know. I recall our old family doctor saying to me, "I wish I could convince you that you'd conceive easily if you just opened sa bottle of wine and enjoyed a relaxing weekend with your husband." 🙄

He also told me that the excruciating pain I experienced every month was not really getting worse, as I reported; the problem was my disappointment at failing to conceive which sharpened my perception of perfectly normal period pain. In other words, it was all in my head.

No, it was in my pelvis. When I was finally properly investigated, the diagnosis was endometriosis. Both ovaries were hugely enlarged with cysts and welded to the uterus with scar tissue, stretching the fallopian tubes which were also part of this solid, useless lump.

I could have drunk myself comatose every night for a decade and still not conceived. Surgery and drugs were the answer, not alcohol and relaxation!

Infertility is indeed frustrating and stressful and by the time you reach a specialist clinic you can be quite tense and emotional. The mistake some doctors make is to mix up cause and effect and make the false deduction that stress causes infertility when in fact it's obviously the other way round.

Because conception for some people is like trying to roll a double six in monopoly, there will always be surprise conceptions when hope had almost been lost. The very natural mistake is to credit whatever identifiable change had recently taken place, which might be a holiday, a change of job or diet or even an adoption. That's how those fertility myths start. How many 'pregnant chairs' are there in office staffrooms? You might as well credit trying a new brand of peanut butter, switching electricity provider or getting a different haircut. Correlation is not causation. 🤦🏼‍♀️

[Circusoflove]

Exactly. Some people will just take a long time to get pregnant. I know a few friends who’s parents were married and trying for several years before they were able to conceive or who had a long and unwanted gap between children. No IVF in those days.

[OhHolyJesus]

I also know a couple of couples who had years of infertility and/or fertility treatment and then got pregnant after a bottle of wine.

I don't share their stories with couples experiencing infertility at the time but they are nevertheless true and it could be them in years to come or it could not. It can give some hope and it's nice to be positive in dark times, though it may not directly help them it's just a lighthearted response, on an awkward, difficult and personal subject where you can have no hope.

What I don't think is fair on couples is doctors 'selling hope'. Profits are made from people wanting children and struggling to do this without help and eve with help.

Maybe the wine is cheaper, maybe it won't work, maybe the IVF won't work either, maybe the stress over it will kill you or kill your relationship. I know what kind of conversation I'd rather have at the school gate or a dinner party.

Basically nobody knows, nobody can predict the future, but whilst you're trying and hoping and buying the science it's only one group of people getting rich.

[asnugglysnerd]

Perhaps Whitney and Megan have a really valid point in that they are calling for data to be collected on the LGBTQ community with regard to fertility treatment success - could this then be presented as different success rates, as it might give a more accurate picture for those with diagnosed fertility issues. Chances are that a lot of lesbian couples or single women choosing to self fund fertility treatment would have no fertility issues, so the clinics are able to portray a higher success rate?

[lakesidewinter]

On the other side we have dc using IVF.
We have had a decade plus afterwards with wine, sex and holidays.
There have been no more dc.
When we were told we would need IVF to produce dc and this turned out to be the case.

[OhHolyJesus]

so the clinics are able to portray a higher success rate?

You might have a point there snuggly.
If fertile men and women are being recorded as infertile in order to get treatment then there is a fudging of the numbers.

I'm not being aggressive or being too personally I hope, but in your situation your girlfriend is, as you say, the more likely of the two of you to get pregnant due to your PCOS. She has no reason to believe she has any infertility and could carry the baby herself, but would prefer you to do it. So it's a preference not infertility. Also you need the sperm obviously and it might be the one to be pregnant anyway, I'm just using you as an example as you have so clearly explained your circumstances.

With men obviously neither one of them can be pregnant or make eggs so that's not a preference but more a 'need' to have a third and forth element - one or two other women - to participate, but they are not infertile. (I say need, as they are essential to the process and also it's a desire but again having a family is a preference overall and a preference isn't infertility.)

If infertility doctors simply helped infertile couples then this would mean most or maybe all same-sex couples wouldn't be considered for their services.

Wouldn't Whitney and Megan be shooting themselves in the foot with this?

Maybe we need to more narrowly define what infertility is?

[NewlyGranny]

I guess the infertile just have to put on a brave face and carry on dancing on knives in social and family gatherings. I can see why people keep their infertility secret and allow others to assume they don't want children rather than have to listen to twaddle about drinking wine or even, as in my case, being sent a tiny package of sand from the side of the road by a relative of DH because "We live in a very fertile street - everyone who lives here gets pregnant!"

I was supposed to put it under my pillow, presumably after drinking the bottle of wine. 🙄

[NewlyGranny]

I guess given the level of conversation in the general public about Covid, politics, education and just about any other topic you care to name, it shouldn't really be surprising that people say ignorant and unhelpful things to the infertile and offer ill-informed advice.

I will never forget the hurt it caused us though and I try to be a bit more sensitive myself. I never ask a new acquaintance whether they have children, for instance, because I know that question is potentially a dagger to the heart. 💔

[mumwon]

If they managed to get this through - I can see what might happen
anyone remember how a man asked for equality regarding retirement age? What happened? Retirement age went up & than up again for everybody (government clicked they could save money!)
What will happen is fertility treatment (& they are NOT infertile - please note - unless they actually are) will be restricted even more & less available for everybody

[jakeyboy1]

I have some gay friends of friends who are currently campaigning on same issue. It makes me really cross as someone who has gone through fertility treatment to see the word "infertility" banded around in these circumstances. It may be treated with fertility treatment but this does not mean they are infertile and as ever it's the woman in any of these situations that had to go through the medical procedures.