LGBT couple's petition to get "equal" fertility treatment

[GlummyMcGlummerson]

An LGBT couple have launched a petition for gay and lesbian couples get the same rights as heterosexual couples when it comes to fertility treatment. Currently most heterosexual couples, after 2 years of being unable to conceive, would likely qualify for 2-3 rounds of IVF (depending where you live) on the NHS. This LGBT couple think it's discrimination that they don't get the same right.

My lesbian friend has asked me to sign it.

I'm not signing it simply because I don't think it's discrimination because heterosexual couples don't need to use an outside source for their conception when offered IVF. The outside source being an actual human being.

I'm actually pretty furious that ANYONE thinks it's their god given right to use a man's sperm and even more furious that they think they'd be entitled to a woman's egg and body (with men using a surrogate). Do these people realise men and women are human, and that there'd be implications for the baby? My friend is donor conceived and has gone through hell and back WRT (accidentally) finding her birth father, and having the complications that brings (and sadly the eventual rejection) 1 all of which is common now thanks to the likes of ancestry DNA. She always says she wishes her mum, adoptive dad and bio dad would have thought of her and the impact on her when they were going through all this.

Assuming that there was "equality", and gay and lesbian couples qualified for free fertility treatment - where are all the sperm/ donors and surrogates going to come from? And how will the NHS take care of them and the children they conceive? Sperm donation is way more tightly regulated than it used to be, thank god, due to the impact on those conceived - how will this all be regulated and who will foot the Bill? To me, it's just a short cut to normalising surrogacy and creating a market for commercial surrogacy.

Equality doesn't always means "you get exactly the same" especially when circumstances are so different.

https://www.change.org/p/matt-hancock-stop-discriminating-against-lgbtq-families-in-the-nhs?utmcontent=cllsharecopy254207899en-GB%3A0&recruitedbyyid=5e4a1470-278c-11eb-8dba-0dfc9da35170&utmsource=shareepetition&utmmedium=copylink&utmmcampaign=psfcombooshare_initial

[quote asnugglysnerd]@EmpressoftheMundane

would you suggest a woman in a heterosexual relationship have sex with a different bloke if her partner had low sperm count/male factor infertility?

I’m sorry, but I do find that suggestion quite offensive... I’m usually pretty easy going but I don’t appreciate comments like that as it feels like an attack on my sexuality.[/quote]
Well she's entitled to access to the same treatment you are. IVF after two years of trying/ 12 IUI cycles.

The NHS sis there to fix medical problems, not social ones.

Oh forgot to say

The comment from empress about having sex with a man to get pregnant if you're a lesbian ..

I don't get where you're coming from, as it were.

Have you never heard of turkey basters? It's the sperm that gets you pregnant. The man is optional, as it were.

I see your comment about fucking a bloke as a bit provocative tbh in the context of the thread.

@NiceGerbil

I see your comment about fucking a bloke as a bit provocative tbh in the context of the thread.

I felt provoked. Seemed to be saying how distasteful it was to get pregnant by having sex with a man.

'23:06EmpressoftheMundane

@asnugglysnerd

An underground system operating where those who can't afford all that are potentially coerced whether financially or otherwise. Lesbian women into being fucked by men. Nice.

You come across as saying that you are entitled to a baby. And, if we don’t pay for you to have it on your own terms, it’s tantamount to sexual coercion.'

I posted that. Not snuggly.

When the misattribution starts it's a sign of a thread going bad.

Good luck Snuggly and if you want to bow out I think that's very understandable

'23:17EmpressoftheMundane

@NiceGerbil

I see your comment about fucking a bloke as a bit provocative tbh in the context of the thread.

I felt provoked. Seemed to be saying how distasteful it was to get pregnant by having sex with a man.'

SHE'S A LESBIAN!

does that help explain her perspective?

Agree. Thread is getting hard to follow.

Ok so given that she's a lesbian do you understand why there was a strong reaction against the idea she should go and fuck a bloke?

If so then we can probably get back on track! It's an interesting thread.

Of course I underspent she wouldn’t want to “fuck” a bloke. But her finding it distasteful does not:

1. Mean she is entitled to IVF paid for by the NHS. Being gay isn’t an illness.
2. Mean I don’t find her aspersions about heterosexual sex insulting. I’m not saying anything rude about lesbian sex, and I expect the same curtesy.

What's wrong with the word fuck, out of interest? Fucking is what makes babies. Having sex sounds so. Passionless? Clinical somehow. Anyway.

She's paying for her own stuff around having a baby. No NHS cash.

Which aspersions about heterosexual sex? Anyway it probably doesn't matter.

Why the big defence of PIV hetero sex? From where I'm standing it causes way more problems than it solves in the world. Now and historically. Seems like an unusual thing to focus on.

would you suggest a woman in a heterosexual relationship have sex with a different bloke if her partner had low sperm count/male factor infertility?

No, but realistically she might have to use a different man's sperm by artificial insemination to get pregnant, if she wanted to.

Male factor infertility is a medical issue for the man.
The IVF/isci is to resolve the medical health issue that the man has.

It has nothing in common with people of different sexual orientations wishing to the parents, (although obviously people who are gay may also have reproductive health issues that should be treated by the NHS)

I don't really understand why two very different issues are getting lumped together.

@NiceGerbil

'23:06EmpressoftheMundane

@asnugglysnerd

An underground system operating where those who can't afford all that are potentially coerced whether financially or otherwise. Lesbian women into being fucked by men. Nice.

You come across as saying that you are entitled to a baby. And, if we don’t pay for you to have it on your own terms, it’s tantamount to sexual coercion.'

I posted that. Not snuggly.

When the misattribution starts it's a sign of a thread going bad.

Good luck Snuggly and if you want to bow out I think that's very understandable

@Clymene - absolutely however Empress suggested that to get pregnant one should do it only by having sex with a man, which if there are issues with a woman’s partners sperm, then leaves her with no other option as IUI isn’t ‘having sex’... and yep, I’m aware that in some cases, it’s a social issue as opposed to a medical one.

@EmpressoftheMundane now appears to be confused with everything that has been said thus far, and making assumptions about my beliefs and view of heterosexual sex. Not once have I insulted sex between a man and a woman, I have merely stated that as a lesbian, I do not find the idea of sex with a man desirable. I also don’t think Empress has read anything else of what I’ve written as she seems to think I expect the NHS to pay for any fertility treatment i have (as I’ve stated, we will be paying for it) and I wouldn’t expect to be given any fertility treatment as I agree, having a child is not a right, neither am I entitled to it.

@NiceGerbil there are indeed ethical considerations, and a lot of people, gay or straight, have to make these difficult decisions daily.

I think the problem is, is that the HFEA has banned sperm banks from shipping donor sperm to home addresses which means you then have to pay for a round of IUI on top of the sperm, which is really equivalent to one session of intercourse, and costs about £1500 on average. With a lower success rate, I think people decide to ‘skip’ straight to IVF as there is a higher chance of success. I would imagine if sperm was able to be shipped to private addresses, a lot more couples would do it in a way you suggest. Heck, you’d probably create nicer memories than the embryo being inserted in to your body with your legs in stirrups!

@NiceGerbil thanks for pointing out the misattribution and for recognising why I don’t want to sleep with a bloke :) absolutely bowing out now, but I’ve enjoyed a healthy conversation with you and many others about this very emotive subject.

Wish you all well!

however Empress suggested that to get pregnant one should do it only by having sex with a man

No. I did not.

You are equating the NHS not paying for IVF for women who find the idea of standard human reproduction distasteful as such. The NHS solves health issues, not social issues.

You very well can get pregnant in nonstandard ways simply because you prefer it. It’s just on you to pay for it.

I think clinics are getting very wealthy and completely overcharging on people's need for help with fertility issues and getting pregnant. Which is one of the reasons healthcare is a public service (and private clinics should be better regulated!).

I do agree, though, that the egg sharing schemes are tantamount to selling your eggs, and whilst it isn't direct cash payment there is a large cash value to this (would clinics be allowed to give out cars for egg donation?). I say this as someone who has egg shared myself for discounted IVF, and feel it is still exploiting those in a desperate position.

@EmpressoftheMundane

however Empress suggested that to get pregnant one should do it only by having sex with a man

No. I did not.

You are equating the NHS not paying for IVF for women who find the idea of standard human reproduction distasteful as such. The NHS solves health issues, not social issues.

You very well can get pregnant in nonstandard ways simply because you prefer it. It’s just on you to pay for it.

Oh blimey, have you actually read any of my posts on this thread, or are you picking out parts you want to focus on?

If you had read any of my previous posts, you will see very clearly I haven't suggested the NHS pay for IVF, in fact I have stated the opposite. I have said that the NHS should NOT be responsible for paying for IVF, however I HAVE said that the priority should be for the NHS to standardise the fertility treatment available throughout the UK and abolish the 'postcode lottery' and this is regardless of sexuality etc.

I don't appreciate accusations which you have fabricated which are totally the opposite of what I have said throughout this thread.

And just to add, I will be PAYING privately for my IVF which is a personal choice and I do not expect the NHS to give me any help at all. Which I think I have said about 8 times thus far. Neither have I expressed any distaste at all for a man and women having sex in order to conceive. What a ridiculous thing to suggest.

I’m lost. If you are happily going your own way and doing your own thing on your own steam, then what is your issue?

I'm glad you're still here asnuggly and I have read all your posts and understood your position thus far.

I would suggest a read through the threads on the Donor Conception board as I think you might be interested in what some say about being donor conceived and egg sharing and feelings of guilt or worries if not contenting with the child. I think it's a useful place to see what proper say. (Some of the language is unpleasant when talking about donors as well, sometimes it sounds to me like they are talking about chickens!)

I also wondered if you had read up about accounts from adults who are donor conceived? To be fair, most stories about prolific donors originate in other countries and I'm relieved that you are taking care with this process and going to a clinic and not using a dodgy sperm donor website or Facebook group, but there are websites like We Are Donor Conceived and the Donor Conception Website that might help you consider the future for your child.

Millie Fontana has spoken about her feelings as she was raised by lesbian mothers and didn't know her father growing up. This is one presentation she made, I think it is powerful.

Many donor conceived adults feel nothing like Millie does but others do and there is no predicting the future for any child or controlling how they feel about being donor conceived.

There are many things to consider around the process, medical, ethical and emotional and physical, so I'm sure you are doing a lot of reading already!

@EmpressoftheMundane my issue is your attack on me, for something that I didn't even post and the way you insinuate I find heterosexual sex 'distasteful' which I have never even alluded to...

I have stated several times I am a lesbian who is paying privately for her own IVF fertility treatment (and going about it in a way which works for us. Even though I HAVE got fertility problems as I do not ovulate, I will still be financing my fertility treatment myself)

I have also said that the guidelines for NHS help when fertility issues have been identified is not standardised across England, which, regardless of sexual orientation etc should be the priority. In my opinion.

Please, if you are going to take umbrage at something you believe I have said, make sure you have read my responses and at least make sure it is a post I actually made.

Since being asexual is also now a Stonewall-approved sexuality, I guess the NHS will need to fund surrogates for perfectly healthy asexual people, as well as single men, and straight couples who can't conceive themselves.

Cool.

With regards to the poster upthread who rejected the idea of gay and lesbian people (either single or couples) "teaming up" to have a baby together, I don't see why this such an unworkable suggestion. Plenty of single straight women have babies with a willing male friend (using a syringe or whatever), and they co-parent. I don't see why gay or lesbian couples are against this and it also has the benefit to the child of allowing it to have a relationship with both of its biological parents.

@PearPickingPorky - for some this may work, however it clearly cannot be a one size fits all suggestion.

A friend of mine co-parents with a gay friend, and it works very well. For others, it would not be the right way to do it.

@PearPickingPorky - this would not work for my girlfriend and I as we want a family together, without an extra person. I can see the advantages for a single man or woman, but not for a couple. That is just my opinion, and as stated, for some it may work well.

£1500 for some spunk?

What the actual fuck.

The clinics are taking the fucking piss.

This whole area seems to be operating very very iffily from what I've read here. It's made me really uncomfortable.

@NiceGerbil

£1500 for some spunk?

What the actual fuck.

The clinics are taking the fucking piss.

Well, sperm in the UK is approx £800-£1000 for 1 vial (enough for 1 round of IUI or 1 round of IVF)

The round of IUI/IVF is the added cost, in addition to extras for embryo storage/medication/ICSI/consultation/medical screening etc... each clinic can set their own rates.

If you choose sperm from a foreign sperm bank, you will pay less for the actual sperm, maybe approx £600, but then you need something called a 'pregnancy slot' which is about £500 - this is to ensure the same sperm donor can only donate to a maximum of 10 (I think) families, however there is no max children each family can have... depending on the sperm donor still donating!

If my girlfriend and I chose to find our own sperm in whichever way, and he gave it to us for 'free' then we could either do artificial insemination at home (at the risk of health problems, safety etc) or we could 'give' it to a clinic to run the tests that sperm donors would undergo, which I think costs circa £2000 and that does NOT include the price of the actual fertility treatment.

It is super expensive... eggs I believe are a lot more expensive as the process involved is so much more invasive!

(disclaimer - I am not suggesting the NHS pay for this)

@OhHolyJesus thank you for the link, I will watch it later on.

Of course, as you say, there is no predicting or controlling how one may feel being bought up in any type of family etc, but I certainly want to make sure I have done the research and taken in to consideration all the different factors, as at the end of the day, it is about our potential child.