Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Sure you could move them straight into social housing or self contained accommodation for example. But that would cause a huge amount of resentment because the entire system runs on scarcity which is something else workers have to try and manage.

But it wouldn't be funded on scarcity if the hugely rich LGBT charities and advocacy groups contributed some funding to the cause of the small number of trans people's needs in this respect. It doesn't have anything to do with women.

You could throw Stonewalls entire annual budget at it and it would barely make a dent. The provision of housing at all levels from social housing to refuge accommodation is appalling and it all impacts on each other. One reason hostels and refuges are often full is because they've got residents ready to move on who have to wait months or years to be housed in some cases. Or increasingly are dumped onto the private sector and quite often end up back in the system when that breaks down.

As Betty said, often males don't need the same support services as women.

The good ones understand that and will leave you

There are good ones

Its telling that women who are otherwise TWAW do conceed that men in womens sport is an issue.
Id love to think its testiment to some underlying sympathy for women but I fear it is becasue this is the one aspect in all this that is going to piss off the general population of men.

Either there is a teeny tiny number of transwomen using the VAWG sector

OR

it’s such a massive issue that Stonewall’s entire annual budget (over 4 million) would ‘barely make a dent’.

Pick one.

They need to improve on managing that risk, rather than transferring it to the women’s sector.

This. If women's feelings were respected and it wasn't an option for any males to access women's refuge spaces, (as if is already for most males) they wouldn't be able to shunt this problem onto women.

There whole fucking feminist movement has to revolve around boneheads like THIS

Those working in the sector have repeatedly said trans inclusion is not a risk including the hundreds of VAWG projects and umbrella bodies who signed the statement saying exactly that that I posted earlier.

There are several prominent ex GC people on twitter, I'm sure many people on this thread will be able to tell you who they are but I'm not going to post details of people's social media on this thread.

Sorry jj. I for some reason assumed you meant like..famous/prominent activists, rather than 'normal' people. Of course posting SM of them would not be appropriate unless famous.

The one I can think of is Amy someone, the one who claimed Julie Bindel was trafficking her a wife, or something. Which really did not come off as genuine at all.

Here's one of those isolated incidents

www.thesun.co.uk/news/8813718/domestic-abuser-kill-lover-womans-refuge/

There's such an empathy deficiency, isn't there, Butterer? No understanding that their self-conception is both inaccessible and irrelevant to you at that point.

It doesn't matter if some people think we ought to feel safe with them. We can't just override our defence systems. And people who expect us to just triggers them again.

it’s such a massive issue that Stonewall’s entire annual budget (over 4 million) would ‘barely make a dent’.

Stonewall have an annual income of over 8 million.

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/02412299/filing-history

@BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero

Either there is a teeny tiny number of transwomen using the VAWG sector

OR

it’s such a massive issue that Stonewall’s entire annual budget (over 4 million) would ‘barely make a dent’.

Pick one.

I was talking about the problems in the housing sector more generally.

Stonewall have no experience in service delivery and so they would not be best placed to set up services. And, as I've said many times, a trans only hostel would be unlikely to be viable because it wouldn't attract enough rents to be financially sustainable.

Still waiting for you to explain this statement about transwomen using male facilities jj.

Most of them won't accept trans women due to the levels of risk involved.

Wow. I got 4 off wiki but I guess it’s out of date.

Still, should be a bit spare in all that to fund some provision for the teeny tiny number of transwomen escaping intimate partner violence, eh?

What an absolute shit show. The good thing is that this board is widely read and this display of attempted coercive control is completely visible.

to all the women living with these men.

So remind us again why it's ok to put transwomen in a female refuge but not a male refuge

It's just I liked it so much the first time

@OldCrone

Still waiting for you to explain this statement about transwomen using male facilities jj.

Most of them won't accept trans women due to the levels of risk involved.

Well the opinion of those running them is that trans women would be at risk in a male only hostel. I don't really know what there is to not understand about that.

Why does it need to be trans only. I'm sure there are plenty of other male members of the LGBT+ community who might need such shelters .

Stonewall have no experience in service delivery and so they would not be best placed to set up services.

I’m sure they could find an appropriate third sector org to fund though.

Women built VAWG services from the ground up with no budget at all. It’s infantilising to suggest that transwomen couldn’t do the same, and grouping with the G and the male B’s would solve the numbers issue.

@334bu

Why does it need to be trans only. I'm sure there are plenty of other male members of the LGBT+ community who might need such shelters .

Because trans women might also need a space away from men.

Because trans women might also need a space away from men.

But women don't? We all need to make compromises, don't we?