Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

but the only evidence from here is from Stonewall which you also no doubt won't accept.

certainly not people who have to make decisions about providing services for victims who thankfully act on evidence not hunches.

But the ONLY evidence is from Stonewall?

I don’t think you really understand why women needed refuges in the first place. You should watch the documentary I posted a few pages back.

Women need help escaping from domestic violence because we are smaller and less physically strong than the perpetrators of violence against us, because we are overwhelmingly responsible for looking after children and because we (still) have lower incomes and less financial security than males, especially during the child rearing years.

The majority of transwomen are sexually orientated towards female people, so are not in intimate relationships with males anyway, but...

Transwomen are male, so do not have the mammalian size/strength discrepancy that results in the murders of two British women every week at the hands of their male partners, and transwomen are not of the sex that bears children and are unlikely to be main caregivers to children, especially in the context of a domestic relationship with another male.
The two biggest factors that necessitate practical help for women to leave a domestic relationship are directly sex based, gender doesn’t come into it. There is no reason to classify transwomen with women in the provision of this particular service.

in case you missed my question.

Have you any idea how nasty you come over here Trying to play women against women? I have only experienced this level of nastiness when trans women start getting involved. Is this your concious intention?. To dominate through nastiness?

"Other women" ? ? ?
How are transwomen other women?

The two biggest factors that necessitate practical help for women to leave a domestic relationship are directly sex based, gender doesn’t come into it. There is no reason to classify transwomen with women in the provision of this particular service.

Yes, exactly.

@Escapeplanning

in case you missed my question.

Have you any idea how nasty you come over here Trying to play women against women? I have only experienced this level of nastiness when trans women start getting involved. Is this your concious intention?. To dominate through nastiness?

These questions are for jj

Now can I have the citation please jj. It should be easy to provide me a link so I can assess its reliability? A link to back up your claim that MTF trans people are more likely to experience sexual violence than women.

@Escapeplanning

in case you missed my question.

Have you any idea how nasty you come over here Trying to play women against women? I have only experienced this level of nastiness when trans women start getting involved. Is this your concious intention?. To dominate through nastiness?

I was simply trying to explain the realities of providing emergency accommodation services, as someone who has both lived in them and worked in the sector. It's not about playing anyone against each other but trying to explain what the sector is like to a lot of people who don't seem to know much about it, despite having such strongly held opinions.

I was simply

I was just

I was only.

nasty

Ah, pat on the head, we just don't understand and no one here ever has had any need to seek a refuge part from you?

'Lots of people referred to emergency accommodation don't want to be placed with substance misusers, people with a mental health condition, lesbians, gay men, people of certain ethnicities, trans people, ex offenders, people with male children'

???

Random list! Based on... What exactly?

@NiceGerbil

'Lots of people referred to emergency accommodation don't want to be placed with substance misusers, people with a mental health condition, lesbians, gay men, people of certain ethnicities, trans people, ex offenders, people with male children'

???

Random list! Based on... What exactly?

Based on my experience of referring people to emergency accommodation and living in a project largely comprised of survivors of sexual and/or physical abuse.

@jj1968

The solutions to these problems are short term: third spaces, long term: prioritising SEX over gendered stereotypes.

Sorry are you arguing that butch women should be forced to use third spaces now as well?

I don't understand that leap, at all?

Saying it should be based on sex, is in no way saying butch women need to use another space?! Butch women are women, so would use the womens. Actually have no idea how you read that to mean butch women should use third spaces?!

In fact, your idea of 'gender presentation' being the important factor in single sex spaces, would be the one that pushes bitches out of the womens!

@Escapeplanning

I was simply

I was just

I was only.

nasty

Then I should fit right in here surely, musn't be kind after all.

If you think there haven't been some pretty fucking nasty comments directed at me, or anyone who comes on this board and disagrees including some of the women on this thread then you have a very skewed idea of what this place is like.

Are we back to the "women are scared of lesbians" calumny again? It really is the trope that will not die.

And it's such offensive bollocks. I have never felt threatened by a lesbian (and as a former women's footballer I have shared many a changing room with lesbians).

Because the number of lesbians who grope, harass, sexually assault is infinitesimally small.

Unlike male people where (as pointed out upthread) roughly 1 in 20 pose an extremely serious risk.

Just stop with the shit about lesbians. It's offensively homophobic.

You are a male on a feminist women's rights board.

If you want clapping for nastiness to women then park your arse where you will get that.

Whenever researchers have looked into this, wherever they are in the world and whatever their methodology they have found trans women face significantly high levels of sexual violence and partner abuse which are comparable with or greater than the rates faced by non trans women.

I don't understand what relevance you are attaching to this 'fact'. Even if this is true, what are you expecting us to do about this?

We are discussing issues which affect women, and you are bringing a completely different demographic into the discussion. Why? It's obviously appalling if transwomen experience high levels of violence from their sexual partners, but what has this to do with women?

Have you got any words for Butterer, jj? Based on what she's said about female spaces with males in them?

In the USA I assume?

What's the problem with having given birth to male children?

A massive proportion of the population have mental health conditions. The vast majority of the time you would have no idea. So what's the problem with people with mental health conditions full stop?

Etc etc

@CaraDuneRedux

Are we back to the "women are scared of lesbians" calumny again? It really is the trope that will not die.

And it's such offensive bollocks. I have never felt threatened by a lesbian (and as a former women's footballer I have shared many a changing room with lesbians).

Because the number of lesbians who grope, harass, sexually assault is infinitesimally small.

Unlike male people where (as pointed out upthread) roughly 1 in 20 pose an extremely serious risk.

Just stop with the shit about lesbians. It's offensively homophobic.

It was actually quite a big issue when I lived in a high support hostel, as were gay and lesbian staff (early 90s so less so now I would hope).

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Have you got any words for Butterer, jj? Based on what she's said about female spaces with males in them?

Yes, I support provision being funded to the extent it meets everybodies needs, and that would include a woman who felt traumatised sharing with a trans woman.

Its about being traumatised at sharing with a male. It has nothing to do with the person's gender identity. Let's be very clear.

saying "you can trust me" is terribly reassuring to a traumatised women
They need evidence..facts louder than words....