Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

Not necessarily.

Then you're including people I don't count as transsexual. It's important to have clear definitions or there is lots of potential for misunderstanding.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Not necessarily.

Then you're including people I don't count as transsexual. It's important to have clear definitions or there is lots of potential for misunderstanding.

Oh, would you like a definition too?

So who would you rather share a refuge with? A chaotic substance misusing women whose been kicked out of other provision for assaulting residents, or a quiet trans women just trying to get on with her life and heal?

There's no easy answers to any of this, it is very difficult work and the most sensible approach is on a case by case basis.

The female person.

It’s a very easy answer for me.
Under no circumstances do I want to share a refuge with a male person.

You have convinced yourself it’s a hard question but it really isn’t.

Woman = adult human female.
Feminism - activism for the rights of female people.

Vulnerable female people need separate support provision to vulnerable male people. That doesn’t mean that vulnerable male people don’t deserve help and support, only that it’s not on feminists and women’s services to provide it.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Also I'd like evidence from the U.K. The US is a very different country but all the evidence jj thinks is compelling comes from there.

No evidence will satisfy you so its pretty pointless asking for it. The reason most evidence is from the US is there are more institutions carrying out research there. It doesn't seem very plausible however that findings from the US would be significantly different to here, but the only evidence from here is from Stonewall which you also no doubt won't accept.

Whenever researchers have looked into this, wherever they are in the world and whatever their methodology they have found trans women face significantly high levels of sexual violence and partner abuse which are comparable with or greater than the rates faced by non trans women. There is no evidence to counter this. That's the current evidencial picture. You can of course choose to completely ignore it, but I wouldn't expect anyone outside of here to take you very seriously. certainly not people who have to make decisions about providing services for victims who thankfully act on evidence not hunches.

Oh, would you like a definition too?

I was responding to jj who disagreed with my framing of "transsexual".

Honeaaly, i have to appreciate this board because it provides an irresistible opportunity for the very people we talk about to set it all out here in words of their own choosing.

Read and digest.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Not necessarily.

Then you're including people I don't count as transsexual. It's important to have clear definitions or there is lots of potential for misunderstanding.

I don't really care who you count as transsexual. Fact is plenty of trans people have been using spaces inline with their gender without a diagnosis for decades.

It doesn't seem very plausible however that findings from the US would be significantly different to here

What, with its hugely higher murder rate, state based laws and different criminal justice system? It's a different society, the fact that we mostly speak the same language, notwithstanding.

Fact is plenty of trans people have been using spaces inline with their gender without a diagnosis for decades.

And I've already told you I don't believe your assertion. Because until a few years ago, I'd never once come across anyone I perceived as male in a female only space. But supposedly 1% of the population is trans.

I do not particalary care about the rates of violence transwomen face. Because they are not women. And this is a board about women's rights

I do care that you try to use the rates of violence against transwomen prostitutes and compare it to the rates of violence against women in general because that's wrong. Unless you think all women are prostitutes ?

@BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero

So who would you rather share a refuge with? A chaotic substance misusing women whose been kicked out of other provision for assaulting residents, or a quiet trans women just trying to get on with her life and heal?

There's no easy answers to any of this, it is very difficult work and the most sensible approach is on a case by case basis.

The female person.

It’s a very easy answer for me.
Under no circumstances do I want to share a refuge with a male person.

You have convinced yourself it’s a hard question but it really isn’t.

Woman = adult human female.
Feminism - activism for the rights of female people.

Vulnerable female people need separate support provision to vulnerable male people. That doesn’t mean that vulnerable male people don’t deserve help and support, only that it’s not on feminists and women’s services to provide it.

It's a very hard question because lots of women would disagree. Lots of people referred to emergency accommodation don't want to be placed with substance misusers, people with a mental health condition, lesbians, gay men, people of certain ethnicities, trans people, ex offenders, people with male children and all kinds of other things for all kind of reasons based on simple prejudice to very real safety concerns. Refuge workers have to juggle this, it's real for them not some intellectual excercise, and I think they deserve to be listened to and respected.

Whenever researchers have looked into this, wherever they are in the world and whatever their methodology they have found trans women face significantly high levels of sexual violence and partner abuse which are comparable with or greater than the rates faced by non trans women

And I'm asking for a citation for that specific claim. How can I challenge it otherwise?

@midgebabe

I do not particalary care about the rates of violence transwomen face. Because they are not women. And this is a board about women's rights

I do care that you try to use the rates of violence against transwomen prostitutes and compare it to the rates of violence against women in general because that's wrong. Unless you think all women are prostitutes ?

Do you think all trans women are prostitutes?

A lot of women would disagree ....go on phone a friend to prove that

I will give them a third option....to have both the psychopath and the man kicked out

What are the different types of methodology that have underpinned the claim that MTF males suffer greater rates of sexual violence than women? Because I've only ever seen self reported surveys, which have clear, well known limitations, used in trans research and cited by Stonewall etc.

Let's take away one of the problems they have to juggle, no males in female shelters . Easy!

Raping your wife was only made a crime in England Wales in the early 90s

Loads of TV progs from back in the day had sexual assault of women presented as a bit of a laugh. Not that long ago. Anyone born in the 70s will remember.

In the USA. Seeing as that's where we're supposed to be talking about according to JJ on a UK site.

The president was recorded saying he grabbed women by the pussy.

In USA in some states child marriage is legal and used to cover up rape resulting in pregnancy.

Now we know that men and boys experience sexual violence. Recent scandals here with sports coaches. RC church. It's appaling and I have no doubt that males face particular issues around understanding what's happened, talking about it. Reporting.

What I don't get from the posters who raise issues like this is the feeling that they want to/ are doing anything to help. It's just a mechanism to try and shut women up.

Take prisons. The risk of sexual violence is often raised as a reason tw should be in women's prisons. But loads of men in prison are at risk of sexual violence. What about them? Why not work to improve things for men, as women have worked to improve things for women?

And the utter disregard for women's feelings and experiences is so blokey. Bog standard male behaviour.

Same as we get from men across the board.

We're used to it though, and keep fighting.

Take our words and that is a different fucking level of bastardry.

No but the studies YOU appear to be referring to concluded that the reason transwomen in the USA experienced high levels of sexual violence was BECAUSE so many of them were involved in prostitution

So if you are comparing a group of prostitute transwomen to all women and saying this proves anything, your statement can only be correct is the all women are also prostitutes

Or see you are talking rubbish / making factually incorrect statements and assertions

Now about that question as to why you think the trials and tribulations of transwomen is relevant to women????,

It's a very hard question because lots of women would disagree. Lots of people referred to emergency accommodation don't want to be placed with substance misusers, people with a mental health condition, lesbians, gay men, people of certain ethnicities, trans people, ex offenders, people with male children and all kinds of other things for all kind of reasons based on simple prejudice to very real safety concerns. Refuge workers have to juggle this, it's real for them not some intellectual excercise, and I think they deserve to be listened to and respected.

Have you any idea how nasty you come over here Trying to play women against women? I have only experienced this level of nastiness when trans women start getting involved. Is this your concious intention?. To dominate through nastiness?

midge belief may not have been the best word choice. When I used it I was thinking of how knowledge is defined in philosophy as 'true, justified belief'.

"People who have concluded they ought to circle f rather than m on this form, for any reason, equals Woman. And you're not allowed to ask about the reasons." I think that's the definition being used.

You've got objective material reality backing up your interpretation of the data, so your internal understanding of yourself as, roughly, a person of the type called woman is both true and justified; if the fuckers take the dictionary you and I are done for. Though we will always be whatever word is being used to describe adult human females.

No firmly held conviction that one is a particular thing can be said to be known rather than believed without the evidence to back it up as true and justified. You have the evidence and so no, you don't believe you're a woman, you know you're one, simply on the grounds of being a female human.

Which takes us neatly back round to "What is this thing they are pointing at when they use the word Woman?" Because it's sure as hell not what we're pointing at, and it looks a hell of a lot like what we call the socially-constructed femininity that is forced on females.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

What are the different types of methodology that have underpinned the claim that MTF males suffer greater rates of sexual violence than women? Because I've only ever seen self reported surveys, which have clear, well known limitations, used in trans research and cited by Stonewall etc.

Marvelous, trans women who report sexual assault are probably making it up, making a fuss over nothing maybe. Funny how often misogynist tropes are thrown in trans women's direction by feminists who quite rightly would explode in rage if people made the same assumptions about other women.

NiceGerbil

I've been reading the Inquiry into Jimmy Savile at Broadmoor secure hospital today. I knew some of it, but it's still pretty horrifying. Incredibly vulnerable women made to strip naked and bathe in front of staff of both sexes, with old Jimmy able to watch.

Women are not allowed to be upset or angry
Except on here of course
I don't have any experience of what you have been through butterer, but I do get how helpful people, here can Be!

Marvelous, trans women who report sexual assault are probably making it up, making a fuss over nothing maybe.

Did I say that? I said that particular methodology has limitations. Not just because some people lie.