Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

@334bu

What about gay men why don't they get to go to female shelters? Are they less vulnerable than male transwomen?

According to the research yes. On partner based sexual violence:

Although more limited in number, studies suggest that transgender people may confront similar levels, if not higher levels, of IPV as compared to sexual minority men and women and cisgender people. Findings of lifetime IPV among transgender people from purposive studies range from 31.1% to 50.0%.• Only one study directly compared the lifetime prevalence of IPV among transgender and cisgender people. This study found that 31.1% of transgender people and 20.4% of cisgender people had ever experienced IPV or dating violence (Langenderfer-Magruder, 2014). • Three studies provided findings of lifetime IPSA prevalence among transgender people, which range from 25.0% to 47.0%.

williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/IPV-Sexual-Abuse-Among-LGBT-Nov-2015.pdf

On sexual violence generally the biggest ever study of trans people found that 47% of transgender people are sexually assaulted at some point in their lifetime: www.hrc.org/resources/sexual-assault-and-the-lgbt-community

There is consistent evidence that trans women face sexual assault and partner violence at comparable or greater rates than non trans women and both face sexual violence at higher rates than men, whether gay or straight, There's loads of literature on this, try google.

There is consistent evidence that trans women face sexual assault and partner violence at comparable or greater rates than non trans women

Citation please.

Also I'd like evidence from the U.K. The US is a very different country but all the evidence jj thinks is compelling comes from there.

There is consistent evidence that rates and types of violence against transwomen are different depending on culture

And forgive me for asking,,,,so what? Transwomen experience violence. Yes. And? I mean they are not women are they, so it's not appropriate to worry about how to help them on a feminism board

Unless you know of course a definition of woman that includes transwomen and doesn't exclude me.
? ??

I feel like I have asked this before, but not seen an answer. I suspect that a simple answer to this question would resolve so many of the points of tension

Probably find that most women have been sexually assaulted at least once if not multiple times in their lifetimes so 47% for transwomen seems quite low.

Why does the conversation keep going back to who men want to fuck?

I have no idea what the fact that men who see themselves as straight will have sex with other men under certain circs adds to this conversation?

Apart from highlighting that sex is of massive interest to lots and lots of men.

Women have other fish to fry. Why would i care if lots of men are bisexual? Go out and have some fun, same as everybody else.

Is it because we're all supposed to be fundamental Christian right wing whatever and saying ZOMG lots of men fuck men even when they say they're straight is supposed to give conniptions?

The enforcement of heterosexuality especially amongst men is guess what. A patriarchy problem. A man problem.

Not a feminist issue.

I've got one, midge.

"People who believe themselves to be female."

We're just not allowed to note whose belief is true and justified vs whose is an article of faith and contrary to evidence.

Another thread where this is needed

www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/insight-is-2020/201910/how-understand-and-handle-bitter-people

@Ereshkigalangcleg

And how were people diagnosed if not on the basis of self reported experiences?

They were diagnosed though, weren't they?

Not necessarily.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

And how were people diagnosed if not on the basis of self reported experiences?

They were diagnosed though, weren't they?

I’m looking forward to the roll out of diagnostic lady-brain scans!

@334bu

Probably find that most women have been sexually assaulted at least once if not multiple times in their lifetimes so 47% for transwomen seems quite low.

According to Rape Crisis it's 20%.

rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/about-sexual-violence/statistics-sexual-violence/

But I don't believe myself to be female

I have been taught that my physical structure makes me female and since I detect a pattern in other people labelled female I can accept that

As a child I believed myself to be Male, but that caused lots of problems. If I accept that I am female and that lots of people apply negative but untrue stereotypes to females, then that works

Are people saying that in fact I am Male even though the whole,world treats me as female? And if I am suddenly accepted as Male, I find it hard to stomach the fact that I would no longer be at risk of rape and pregnancy and others , without that identity, would remain at risk

Straight up, I come under the bitter umbrella too.
NC in honour of a poster's typo that genuinely made me laugh a few weeks ago.

In short, bitter men and women are so preoccupied by the set of negative feelings they live with that they do not have enough of a proverbial clear head to practice mutual respect and acceptance of others' feelings and needs. People in close personal and professional relationships with bitter individuals often feel that they can't ever "win" with these people; they always end up feeling that nothing they do is ever good enough or they inevitably get dragged into confusing and annoying conflicts or mildly tense interactions.

We must remember that the only hard data on sexual assaults on transwomen found that transwomen had higher rates of assault because of their profession. The transwomen and women in that profession had similar assault rates. Oops jj,.

Which of course begs the question, why are transwomen so likely in the USA to enter the profession
But still that's not a problem for feminists unless we see transwomen as women , which takes us back to the question

In what way are transwomen women ?

@334bu

You may accept a women with a history of violence if you think you can man manage her because they are a woman. You refuse transwoman because they are male.

So who would you rather share a refuge with? A chaotic substance misusing women whose been kicked out of other provision for assaulting residents, or a quiet trans women just trying to get on with her life and heal?

There's no easy answers to any of this, it is very difficult work and the most sensible approach is on a case by case basis.

@Bitterer

Straight up, I come under the bitter umbrella too. NC in honour of a poster's typo that genuinely made me laugh a few weeks ago.

You are woman. Fill your boots here.

The woman thank you

There is clearly no easy answer to what is your definition of woman?

Not necessarily.

Down with gatekeeping! Self identified trans people should be able to do whatever the fuck they want with their bodies at the expense of the state, amiright? And if they go on to regret it they should be frozen out by their former community because detransitioners make trans ideology look bad!

medium.com/@barereality/the-detransitioners-72a4e01a10f9

20% 😂

Only if they are just counting rape as a sexual assault!

@334bu

20% 😂 Only if they are just counting rape as a sexual assault!

That's men for you isn't it

I would have a better chance against a psychotic female than a psychotic male so I think I'll go with the woman.

So who would you rather share a refuge with? A chaotic substance misusing women whose been kicked out of other provision for assaulting residents, or a quiet trans women just trying to get on with her life and heal?

Just go and ask that victim blaming question somewhere that victim blaming is the status quo.

Revolted

'
On sexual violence generally the biggest ever study of trans people found that 47% of transgender people are sexually assaulted at some point in their lifetime'

How is it defined?

Sexual assault of women and older girls is at the lower end of the scale considered pretty normal...? In the UK anyway.

Just having a look. The link provided is really interesting.

www.hrc.org/resources/sexual-assault-and-the-lgbt-community

Mainly about sexual crimes against women. They compare to stats for straight 'people'. Well that's an issue right there.