Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

Let's think this through logically

Men have refuges
Women have refugee

Traumatised women don't always want to be near men
Traumatised transwomen we must assume don't always want to be near men ...that is the only reason that they won't go to the Male refuge

So here we are again,,,women say no to men, transwomen demands to overrule that. Sexism in action yet again

Unless someone can answer the original question...why should we consider that transwomen are women? What is the definition ?

Wow this thread!
I like picture of the spegg.
Can't believe we women have to waste time on this nonsense. I know we must but I'm surprised it hasn't gone away yet.

If women's shelters can provide totally separate accommodation for male victims no problem. However, they have no right to impose males on female victims of male violence by asking them to share accommodation or counselling sessions with transwomen.

@midgebabe

Let's think this through logically

Men have refuges
Women have refugee

Traumatised women don't always want to be near men
Traumatised transwomen we must assume don't always want to be near men ...that is the only reason that they won't go to the Male refuge

So here we are again,,,women say no to men, transwomen demands to overrule that. Sexism in action yet again

Unless someone can answer the original question...why should we consider that transwomen are women? What is the definition ?

Or in reality a trans women in fear of her life rings the domestic violence helpline and whoever answers does what they can to get her to a place of safety. Trans inclusion in VAWG services didn't happen because anyone was making demands, it happened because VAWG workers didn't want to leave trans women with no place of safety.

The problem is it's unlikely more than a handful of trans women a year need a refuge, so it would be very difficult to establish one that was trans only as it wouldn't attract enough rent payments to be viable under the current system.

Transmen do exist you know. And non binary people. Just thought I’d remind you, as you have clearly forgotten.

Any additional funding would be likely to be perceived to come from the VAWG budget, as would staff, who are a pretty vital resource,

No one wanted to fund VAWG stuff. Women did it themselves. You need to think out of the box a bit.

not many people can or want to do this kind of work.

LGBT shelters wouldn’t need to exclusively employ female people, so that opens up a whole new untapped resource.

So the women's sector by and large has been opposed to it

The women’s sector is opposed to new, properly funded provision for people that aren’t female?

A) that’s bollocks
And B) why would the VAWG sector have any influence over a new G(&male)BT provision? It’s a completely different set of protected characteristics. Lobby for your own needs.

Are there no male shelters?

jj has clearly dismissed the feelings of female service users, Butterer. When presented with evidence of how a group of female survivors feel about males in female only spaces.

How do you think 'transsexuals' used to identify if not by self identification?

Transsexualism is/was a medical diagnosis, not an identity.

Female is not an identity either, btw. It’s a reproductive category. You can’t identify into a reproductive category.

The women’s sector is opposed to new, properly funded provision for people that aren’t female?

A) that’s bollocks

And B) why would the VAWG sector have any influence over a new G(&male)BT provision? It’s a completely different set of protected characteristics. Lobby for your own needs.

Yes.

I get well frothy about this stuff, for obvious reasons.

I understand that

Or in reality a trans women in fear of her life rings the domestic violence helpline and whoever answers does what they can to get her to a place of safety.

What should other males expect?

@Butterer

Ok, jj, you're talking about workers being fine with it.

What about service users like me who sleep rough in preference to having only the option of mixed sex services? I've talked about this happening to me before when our womens refuge were full and I got referred to the mixed sex homeless shelter instead. I felt safer sleeping on the street than doing that.

I wasn't experiencing specific relationship or partner violence the time, but had multiple male neighbours who made me feel to unsafe to stay in my home that night. I went back within a couple of days.

If I'd been placed somewhere alongside a trans woman (if I'd been given refuge space in the first place) service user, it would have either completely broken my dealing with my particular traumas (individual flats still have shared spaces usually- I once got assaulted in my current communal fucking hall/front doorway. I don't feel comfortable alone with or being forced to be in the same space as males, and tend to absolutely crisis when it happens) or it would have just made me walk out. Or both.

Amplifying Butterer’s incredibly important point.

What about female service users?

What about female prisoners?

What about female patients in secure psychiatric facilities?

What about female patients on hospital wards?

The staff get to go home when their shifts end.

What about the women who don’t get to leave?

Do their voices count? Do their needs get met?

What about gay men why don't they get to go to female shelters? Are they less vulnerable than male transwomen?

You can't answer my question can you? The one about what makes a transwoman a woman and at the same time leaves me as a woman?

@Butterer

Ok, jj, you're talking about workers being fine with it.

What about service users like me who sleep rough in preference to having only the option of mixed sex services? I've talked about this happening to me before when our womens refuge were full and I got referred to the mixed sex homeless shelter instead. I felt safer sleeping on the street than doing that.

I wasn't experiencing specific relationship or partner violence the time, but had multiple male neighbours who made me feel to unsafe to stay in my home that night. I went back within a couple of days.

If I'd been placed somewhere alongside a trans woman (if I'd been given refuge space in the first place) service user, it would have either completely broken my dealing with my particular traumas (individual flats still have shared spaces usually- I once got assaulted in my current communal fucking hall/front doorway. I don't feel comfortable alone with or being forced to be in the same space as males, and tend to absolutely crisis when it happens) or it would have just made me walk out. Or both.

I think if someone genuinely felt traumatised by sharing with a trans women then service providers should find a way to accommodate that. From what they have said so far this is not a common problem. But I absolutely support a service well funded enough to ensure a place of safety for everyone, with a range of possible options.

Unfortunately running this kind of service involves compromises and a degree of risk. Do you accept a woman with a history of serious violence for example? Or someone who is currently misusing class A drugs or is a 24 hour a day drinker? Or a woman with teenage sons? Or a trans woman? These are judgement calls refuges have to make every single day and they have extensive risk assessment procedures to ensure the system is as safe as possible. That's why a range of provision is so vital, and if the funding was adequate there would be little need for this conversation.

@BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero

How do you think 'transsexuals' used to identify if not by self identification?

Transsexualism is/was a medical diagnosis, not an identity.

Female is not an identity either, btw. It’s a reproductive category. You can’t identify into a reproductive category.

And how were people diagnosed if not on the basis of self reported experiences?

Why should they even be put in the position of being possibly traumatised? Transwomen are not female and should not be in female shelters.

And how were people diagnosed if not on the basis of self reported experiences?

They were diagnosed though, weren't they?

You may accept a women with a history of violence if you think you can man manage her because they are a woman. You refuse transwoman because they are male.

Women are traumatised by Male bodies
Women are trained to shut up
How do you think a traumatised wome will react when the people she turns to tell her not to worry about the transwoman ?

How does the refuge know it's a transgender woman and not a man? Remind me again what the definition is of woman?

I was just about to say very similar. Males should be excluded because it's not appropriate in a female only space.