Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

I"'m not aware that Blanchard did any serious work on why so many straight men are attracted to ttrans women beyond a bit of speculation.

Obviously from a male perspective this is going to be described as unserious. Are you here talking from a male perspective or a female perspective?

@BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero

Same with knife crime amongst black males and instances like the Rotherham sex scandal and NYE sexual assaults.

Of course, these don't cancel out the crimes perpetrated by men

That’s because they ARE crimes perpetrated by MEN, you ninny.

That was a thing of beauty to read, Betty

@Ereshkigalangcleg

In which case bisexuality in men is much greater than assumed.

Well yes I think that's quite possible.

What else do you suggest is behind these self declared "straight" men's attraction to MTF trans people? Why would they find them "exotic", as you suggested earlier, rather than be repulsed by their male genitals?

I don't really know, but I think it points to sexuality being quite complex and something that can include gender based preferences.

@Escapeplanning

I"'m not aware that Blanchard did any serious work on why so many straight men are attracted to ttrans women beyond a bit of speculation.

Obviously from a male perspective this is going to be described as unserious. Are you here talking from a male perspective or a female perspective?

I don't know what you mean sorry. Has Blanchard published any research on this or not?

I don't really know, but I think it points to sexuality being quite complex and something that can include gender based preferences.

Whichever way you slice it, gender isn't sex, so these men are bisexual. It's not an identity, it's the reality of being sexually attracted to people of both sexes, but in these cases possibly having hang ups about fancying masculine men.

Still waiting for evidence to prove that a subset of males who identify as women seedless dangerous than other males!

are less.

If transwomen are having sex with men they are gay or bi. If " straight "men are having sex with transwomen they are really gay or bi. If transwomen are only having sex with women they are heterosexuals

Slughtly relayed- there used to be services specifically for "men who have sex with men" - it covered "straight", bi and gay men, and male sex workers/clients. I don't know if trans men were ever included; I would assume trans women wouldn't self include, and haven't kept up to date with related stuff for a few years.

Sarah Stuart did a post about PrEP where she attended a training session and this was discussed:

https://the-lies-they-tell.org/2020/11/10/selling-prep-part-3/

@334bu

Still waiting for evidence to prove that a subset of males who identify as women seedless dangerous than other males!

You've been presented with evidence including the testimony of hundreds of organisations who work with victims of male violence. The truth is there is no evidence you will accept I suspect, you've decided on something and nothing will change your mind.

How about you post some evidence, not anecdotes, or isolated cases, of trans inclusive policies placing women at risk?

This is disingenuous. I'm sure you're well aware of the work done in the states, including one peer reviewed study, that demonstrated that trans inclusive policies have not caused increased risk because I'm pretty sure we've disussed it before. I also posted a joint letter in this thread from hunrdreds of VAWG organisations who explicitly said in their experience trans inclusion has not caused in increased risk. And we have decades of trans inclusion all over the world to look at which reveals the number of incidents to be in single figures - and theres little evidence spaces policed by physical sex would have prevented them. The risk of a woman ever being harmed by a trans women in a trans inclusive single sex space is millions to one and if you had any evidence beyond a handful of isolated cases from all over the planet that showed otherwise I'm sure you'd have posted it by now.

I'm sure you know that many VAWG organisations are forced to include transwomen or lose their funding.

I'm sure you also know that the definition of 'trans' has changed in recent years to include people like crossdressers, rather than the original type of transwoman who was undergoing physical treatment.

So when you talk about trans inclusion, are you also talking about accepting cross dressing males into female only spaces? Bearing in mind that many cross dressing males get a sexual thrill out of cross dressing.

You've been presented with evidence including the testimony of hundreds of organisations

Ideologically captured organisations. Anything better?

How about you post some evidence, not anecdotes, or isolated cases, of trans inclusive policies placing women at risk?

Do you also talk about bad things happening to trans people as "anecdotes or isolated cases"?

Thats because people use toilets inline with their gender presentation and always have.

But this would mean butches use the mens,. which doesn't happen and shouldn't either?

If its all about 'gender presentation' then all feminine people..male or female would use the womens, and anyone masculine use the mens.

There is no such thing as a "trans inclusive single sex space". Because sex isn't gender identity.

Also with noting crimes/incidents are reported in self defined gender so actually getting any info re incidents is alot harder.
They are only transwomen or trans men when they are the victims. Not the perpetrators. No records means nothing

Quite.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

You've been presented with evidence including the testimony of hundreds of organisations

Ideologically captured organisations. Anything better?

Okay, I think this proves my point. Any evidence presented will be dismissed. The opinions of hundreds of organisations who are actually dealing with the impact of male violence is irrelevent because they've all been brainwashed. But you're not conspiracy theorists, oh no.

Do you not think that's a little bit insulting to the women doing some of the hardest work in society and providing life saving support for survivors?

Transwomen are male. Males are dangerous to women. 99% of sex offenders are male. 85% approx of violent crimes are committed by males. Where is the evidence that transwomen do not have the same pattern of criminality as other males? Where is the evidence that the cohort of male sex offenders doesn't include transwomen? Where is the evidence that transwomen are not included in those males who commit violent crimes?

Pointing out ideological capture is wrong now? We know it, because we have evidence of it.

As survivors of abuse we are very angry at Stonewall’s report (Supporting trans women in domestic and sexual violence services), claiming that the women’s sector believes there is no issue with having trans identifying males in women’s spaces. Stonewall claims that the voices of professionals in the women’s sector are missing from this debate but in actual fact the original letter we wrote, clearly stating the issues with having trans identified males in spaces with female survivors of abuse, was done together with womens sector workers, as is this response. We have worked closely together from the start. Please see at the end of this letter for eleven on record quotes from women’s sector professionals and women’s services who disagree with Stonewall. We find Stonewalls report to be highly misleading and unethical. We feel completely silenced and ignored as survivors of abuse.

fovas.wordpress.com/response-to-stonewall-2/

Where is the compassion for female survivors here?

jj you are quite aware if at least 2 incidents that involve shelters/rape crisis centres.

Many are stripped if funding if they don't admit transwomen.

What is it you think they are going to say?

Especially when one was dragged through the courts for years fir refusing.

The thing I take away from the argument about how to define males who have consensual sex with males is: orientation-labels become identities.

It's become politically correct to allow people to identify and describe their sexuality in whatever words feel true to them.

Orientation self-ID, in other words.

Does orientation-language relate to the material interaction of bodies, or does it relate to the self-described internal experience of feeling sexual attraction? Or are we using the same words to describe two different yet related phenomena?

Objective orientation and orientation-identification are not the same thing.

Some men are bisexual straights. Not complicated.

Does orientation-language relate to the material interaction of bodies, or does it relate to the self-described internal experience of feeling sexual attraction? Or are we using the same words to describe two different yet related phenomena?

Objective orientation and orientation-identification are not the same thing.

I agree, and took pains to clarify this in my response to jj.