Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

Objectively, men who have sex with males are bisexual or gay.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Pointing out ideological capture is wrong now? We know it, because we have evidence of it.

As survivors of abuse we are very angry at Stonewall’s report (Supporting trans women in domestic and sexual violence services), claiming that the women’s sector believes there is no issue with having trans identifying males in women’s spaces. Stonewall claims that the voices of professionals in the women’s sector are missing from this debate but in actual fact the original letter we wrote, clearly stating the issues with having trans identified males in spaces with female survivors of abuse, was done together with womens sector workers, as is this response. We have worked closely together from the start. Please see at the end of this letter for eleven on record quotes from women’s sector professionals and women’s services who disagree with Stonewall. We find Stonewalls report to be highly misleading and unethical. We feel completely silenced and ignored as survivors of abuse.

fovas.wordpress.com/response-to-stonewall-2/

I'm not sure Stonewall have much influence over the hndreds of organisatuions in the US who signed that letter. But yes, the Stonewall research is additional evidence that the VAWG sector do not consider trans inclusion a threat.

Still no evidence that transwomen are different from other males!

I'd whack a 'consensual' in there to be on the safe side, Eresh, cos I've always got room to worry about making life smoother for women who accept their lesbianism in later life, but yes. Objectively bi- or homosexual, with a wide range of identities to choose from.

I'm not sure Stonewall have much influence over the hndreds of organisatuions in the US who signed that letter.

Quite, so as we are in the U.K and discussing U.K. policy it's not particularly relevant, is it, that lots of ideologically captured organisations in the US signed something.

Jj you persist as is your way to insist
that we will think your way, but we don't as
We have our own minds
We have our own minds
We are not convinced by your

Constant repetition
Constant repetition
Constant repetition
. it's sad for you that repetition don't work
You are rapping at us who knows you a jerk.

@Whatwouldscullydo

jj you are quite aware if at least 2 incidents that involve shelters/rape crisis centres.

Many are stripped if funding if they don't admit transwomen.

What is it you think they are going to say?

Especially when one was dragged through the courts for years fir refusing.

I'm aware of one incident. Luckily that would not happen here because there's no way someone with a record of offending like that would get near a womens refuge in the UK due to the sex offenders register. So one incident, in the world, across several decades.

I'm not aware of any refuges in the UK being stripped of funding. NIA still seem to be in operation. The vast bulk of funding for the refuge sector comes from housing benefit so their policies would be largely irrevlevent.

But yes, the Stonewall research is additional evidence that the VAWG sector do not consider trans inclusion a threat.

Your compassion for the female survivors who wrote the FOVAS letter is noted. Stonewall didn't bother to ask any service users what they felt for their gotcha "research" project, which isn't surprising.

I'm aware of one incident.

Come now, you're usually so well informed about matters GC!

So if it doesn't happen in a shelter it doesn't count?

You didn't hear if the dead rat nailed to the door?

Honestly given the odeological capture of hundreds of organisations and the very public twitter pile ons what do you think would be the answer to the question when asked?

So one incident, in the world, across several decades.

No, as you've been told, there are at least two. Personally I can think of 5, just off the top of my head.

And I'm talking of separate organisations, not separate incidents. Some have multiple incidents.

I don’t believe ‘chasers’ are bisexual in the usual meaning, they are men with Gynandromorphophilia. It’s closely related to AGP and lots of GAMPs go on to cross dress or transition themselves.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-016-0872-6

Kat Blaque (an HSTS in Blanchard’s classification) made a video complaining about the phenomenon of the boyfriends of transwomen coming out as trans themselves (Kat says this has happened 5 times in Kat’s own relationship history):

Kat is a very modern transwoman and would no doubt deny autogynephilia is a thing, yet here Kat is, literally describing the phenomenon of GAMPs, only without the specific terms.

Human sexuality is weird, especially in males. I don’t believe a paraphilia for people with a mixture of primary and secondary sex characteristics is the same thing as a bisexual sexual orientation.

Interestingly, ‘chasers’ for FtM people are increasingly observed. Perhaps unsurprisingly chasers for both FtM and MtF people are overwhelmingly male, something common across all types of paraphilias.

Duncan (former Transactivist with Mumsnet related backstory) has posted a thoughtful medium article regarding gay male sexuality and how it responds to sex and gender. I thought a similar articles from a female perspective (homosexual/heterosexual and bisexual) would be interesting to read too:

medium.com/@duncanhenry78/sexuality-revisited-my-grand-unified-hypothesis-3ddc0c05798f

I know Butterer made this comment quite a way back now ...

Is there a box for a bisexual woman who usually finds relationships and sex with men to be seriously not good and will only consider a same sex partner in the future? It still just bisexual (but with trauma baggage)?

But I just wanted to reassure anyone feeling this way that it’s probably a pretty big category and a contributory factor as to why lots of women spend many years in heterosexual marriages, divorce and then ‘come out’ in later life, not as bisexuals, but as lesbians. They are literally done with penis-havers. Over it. Been there, bought the t shirt, and are now ready to trade it in for one with a labrys on the front.

(And obviously ‘compulsory heterosexuality‘ for women is a powerful force and part of feminine gendered socialisation in early life).

Human sexuality is weird, especially in males. I don’t believe a paraphilia for people with a mixture of primary and secondary sex characteristics is the same thing as a bisexual sexual orientation.

Interesting point.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

So one incident, in the world, across several decades.

No, as you've been told, there are at least two. Personally I can think of 5, just off the top of my head.

Indeed, in women's spaces overall. 5 incidents, on a planet of 7 billion people and a timespan of decades. If trans inclusion was really the threat that is claimed there should be thousands.

They may have facsimiles of another sex's secondary sex characteristics but their sex doesn't change , so if a man wants to have sex with a transwomen they are eiither gay or bi, definitely not straight.

For me, it really does boil down to a few really simple questions:

What is a woman?

What is a transwoman?

On what objective basis is a transwoman a woman?

At what objective point does a male who 'identifies as a woman' because 'a woman'? And therefore come out of the high risk class of 'male' and into the much lower risk class of 'female'?

Until those questions are answered, then there really isn't anywhere else to go.

@VulvaPerson

Thats because people use toilets inline with their gender presentation and always have.

But this would mean butches use the mens,. which doesn't happen and shouldn't either?

If its all about 'gender presentation' then all feminine people..male or female would use the womens, and anyone masculine use the mens.

And we either wouldn’t have any urinals at all or both loos would have urinals and sanitary bins!

Toilets are clearly segregated by material sex differences, not gendered feelings, (no matter how sincere or distressing those feelings are)

Indeed, in women's spaces overall. 5 incidents, on a planet of 7 billion people and a timespan of decades. If trans inclusion was really the threat that is claimed there should be thousands

Again why does there need to be some arbitrary number of incidents and some set level of seriousness in order to he taken seriously, just ro justify having no males in a space?

Why can't males set up their own? Why take away from women?

And we are also in the situation where women are being obliged to report sexual offences , although we know only a small fraction are ever reported.

jj Given this " only five" incidents over decades you can definitely provide the studies that prove transwomen don't share the same patterns of criminality towards women as other males! Waiting with eager anticipation!!!!!

Indeed, in women's spaces overall. 5 incidents, on a planet of 7 billion people and a timespan of decades.

I don't accept that all MTF trans people have been using female spaces at will for decades, sorry. Maybe a few who pass, and so few do.

Still waiting for someone to help me understand why some women think that transwomen are a key feature of their feminism

What definition of women please are you Using and am I , currently considered a woman due to my biology, actually a woman by your definition