Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

Joswis

You're asking that we accept your opinion on whether MTF trans people are women. You are trying to claim they're somehow different to men, beyond saying that they are women. You even used the term "cis" as your ideology dictates.

Well, that was an afternoon well spent!

@Escapeplanning

The unpleasantly named shemale porn industry sells almost as much as mainstream porn and you won't find it on gay sites.

And yet if women here mention Blanchard's sexology research on this exact phenomena we are pounced on by external monitors.

Why is that?

I'm not aware that Blanchard did any serious work on why so many straight men are attracted to ttrans women beyond a bit of speculation.

Bisexual men.

There's your answer.

[quote DrDavidBanner]**@LordLancington Lockdown is hard for all of us, are you feeling okay? Why do you keep posting irrelevant rants on this thread that have nothing to do with the topic of conversation. Its very odd behaviour.[/quote]
The Lord moves in mysterious ways.

The OP is about the mindset of those who claim to be my allies, and you say I shouldn't read it because it would obviously be triggering? I don't even know where to start with that.

It's very dismissive

Your response indicates that you would rather not know that you are inadvertently damaging female sufferers of a class you claim to support.

Oh I think they know perfectly wel what they're doing

Without explaining why transwomen are women, I doubt any of us have any chance of understanding

@334bu

So Joswis that would be a no , you have no meaningful evidence that shows having males in female only spaces is not detrimental to female safety. Good to know.

This is disingenuous. I'm sure you're well aware of the work done in the states, including one peer reviewed study, that demonstrated that trans inclusive policies have not caused increased risk because I'm pretty sure we've disussed it before. I also posted a joint letter in this thread from hunrdreds of VAWG organisations who explicitly said in their experience trans inclusion has not caused in increased risk. And we have decades of trans inclusion all over the world to look at which reveals the number of incidents to be in single figures - and theres little evidence spaces policed by physical sex would have prevented them. The risk of a woman ever being harmed by a trans women in a trans inclusive single sex space is millions to one and if you had any evidence beyond a handful of isolated cases from all over the planet that showed otherwise I'm sure you'd have posted it by now.

Stop talking about risk, which has not been properly measured because the feelings and changes of behaviour of women were not actually monitored

Be kind for a change, be nice,think about the feelings of women

Woman ...I would prefer to be with other women please
Transwoman...I would prefer to be with women please

Why the fuck should the transwomen get preference ?

Why does something have to have happened jj ?

Why can't males A) sort their own shit out so all males are safe amongst other males

B) let females have spaces away from them?

Why does there have to be list of acceptable reasons /occurrences that males then decide on whether or not to "permit" single sex spaces/classes/venues

Why can't males stay out if it ajd stop making it all about them.

@Joswis

Nope. You don't want debate. You aren't capable of listening.

What a dismissal. I'm not sure who you directed that to as you chose not to @ any one.

The strength of this board is a reading place. Women pick up their 21st century quill and make marks denied to us for so long it makes my eyes close to think about.

Stop telling us we are not capable.

Why the fuck should the transwoman get preference?

Internalised heteronormativity.

The person who wants to be with the opposite sex is prioritised over the person who wants to be with the same sex. Basic feature of patriarchy brain, innit?

"This is disingenuous. I'm sure you're well aware of the work done in the states, including one peer reviewed study, that demonstrated that trans inclusive policies have not caused increased risk because I'm pretty sure we've disussed it before. I also posted a joint letter in this thread from hunrdreds of VAWG organisations who explicitly said in their experience trans inclusion has not caused in increased risk. And we have decades of trans inclusion all over the world to look at which reveals the number of incidents to be in single figures - and theres little evidence spaces policed by physical sex would have prevented them. The risk of a woman ever being harmed by a trans women in a trans inclusive single sex space is millions to one and if you had any evidence beyond a handful of isolated cases from all over the planet that showed otherwise I'm sure you'd have posted it by now."

Charleyparley showed just how robust that study was ( not!) on another thread! As for the letter I believe someone else pointed out the real size of this small group of VAW groups. What you have never given is any evidence that this particular subset of males is any less dangerous to women than other males. I am absolutely sure if such evidence existed you would have plastered it all over these boards.

What you have never given is any evidence that this particular subset of males is any less dangerous to women than other males. I am absolutely sure if such evidence existed you would have plastered it all over these boards.

Yes. Don't hold your breath.

@VulvaPerson

"In fact theres quite a few ex GC lesbians who quite openly say they wouldn't date trans women who've been welcomed by trans people"

Interesting, do you have any names here? If a 'few' exist, it should be easy to say who these few are? Just it appears to be hugely rare for people to go from GC to..not GC so I would be very interested in these former gender critical lesbians who are not gender critical now.

There are several prominent ex GC people on twitter, I'm sure many people on this thread will be able to tell you who they are but I'm not going to post details of people's social media on this thread.

I only know of one, Amy Dyess, whose GC ‘expose‘ was a big ol nothing burger. Seems to have mistaken a joke (paraphrase ‘we’ll find you a British wife!’ as conspiracy to commit immigration fraud).

I think Amy identifies as trans now.

So what makes them think that including males in female only spaces is not a threat to women?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Bisexual men.

In which case bisexuality in men is much greater than assumed.

Thing is a lot of chaser types quite openly have relationships with trans women and some even with crossdressers. And many would say they've tried having sex with men but it doesn't work for them. I think there's something a bit more complex going on and that gender, in some people, can play a greater part in sexuality than is often assumed. I don't really see how it can't. If we accept that at least in part sexuality is socially formed then surely gender would play a role in that formation, at least for some people.

Still not straight men!

In which case bisexuality in men is much greater than assumed.

Well yes I think that's quite possible.

What else do you suggest is behind these self declared "straight" men's attraction to MTF trans people? Why would they find them "exotic", as you suggested earlier, rather than be repulsed by their male genitals?

@334bu
As for the letter I believe someone else pointed out the real size of this small group of VAW groups.

Are you having a laugh? Some of the signatories of that letter are umbrella bodies with hundreds of affiliated organisations. I suspect they have considerably more insight into this than most.

In case you missed it signatories included:

National Alliance to End Sexual Violence
National Center for Victims of Crime
National Center on Domestic and Sexual Violence
National Coalition Against Domestic Violence
National Council of Jewish Women
National Domestic Violence Hotline
National Housing Law Project
National Indigenous Women's Resource Center
National Latina@ Network: Casa de Esperanza
National Network to End Domestic Violence
National Organization for Men Against Sexism
National Organization for Women
National Organization of Asian Pacific Islanders Ending Sexual Violence
National Organization of Sisters of Color Ending Sexual Assault
National Organization for Victim Assistance
National Resource Center on Domestic Violence
National Women’s Law Center