Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

334bu Thank you. This is my conflict, why should we be inclusive to head fuckers?

@DrDavidBanner

I do wonder (and this is the thing that is blowing my mind)

Excuse me I do not have a university education or published papers.

Do people really believe that TWAW? I mean genuinely, honestly?

Do people really believe there is such thing as a male lesbian?

I mean I hear people say it but I really wonder what is the motivation?

Joswis does. It's a characteristic of female subservience that they will engage their "pity" instincts to do this. I can only see this as a sort of headmistress or head girl role women play. Probably because that was the extent of female influence for a long time and it has a long hangover in academia.

I can only see this as a sort of headmistress or head girl role women play. Probably because that was the extent of female influence for a long time and it has a long hangover in academia.

Yes I agree.

Patronising. Echo chamber.

Still waiting for evidence!

Still waiting for an explanation of why someone would be a lesbian separatist and "not submit to men" because that is the definition of lesbian separatist, but include males as women.

No I think of this more as a support room for the many women who have outgrown gender dysmorphia than an echo chamber

Nope. You don't want debate. You aren't capable of listening.

@Joswis

Patronising. Echo chamber.

Your opinion. As a paid observer of academic behaviour I stand by my assessment.

Oh, ok. I was operating under the OPs reason for the thread.

You aren't capable of listening.

Hark at the kettle!

I'll say it again: your trans-inclusion is triggering my dysphoria.

Can you actually see those words, or does your mind just skate right over them?

So you do believe there is no risk in allowing males into female only safe spaces, other than your experience with your mixed sex lesbian group, on what else do you base this opinion?

Why did you join the thread if it's a trigger? It was in the OP.

Why won't you women just listen and agree that The Emperor's new clothes are the finest there has ever been.

But I think we just don't understand

I don't actually want flash debate

I just want a definition of woman that includes myself and transwomen given that the only reason I accept the word woman being used to describe me is because it captures an aspect of my biology that entitles me to some support for the problems that my biology has caused

Why did you join the thread if it's a trigger? It was in the OP.

Yes, and she's asking you to engage with her feelings. Just like your special pleading for MTF trans people.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I can only see this as a sort of headmistress or head girl role women play. Probably because that was the extent of female influence for a long time and it has a long hangover in academia.

Yes I agree.

Female academic careers started as paid governesses. The empathy for male children experiencing non confirming expression could have a direct line to solutions but we are instead at a point where Sisters Uncut are physically protesting Debbie Hayton and Miranda Yardley outside a meeting held to discuss the rights of women.

Patronising.

And yet you call a friend with DSD a "blend".

The fuckery

Thanks Escapeplaning I think you're right.

@Requinblanc

Do the people who seems to be so hostile about transgender women have actually bothered to spend anytime speaking to these women and understanding them?

I really wonder...

I am a lifelong feminist and I met a transgender woman a few years ago who has since become a fantastic friend. Before that I had never had the opportunity to speak to someone who had gone and was still going through gender reassignment and who could talk candidly about what was going on in her mind.

I also met through her many members of the transgender community and I was really touched as to how they welcomed me. I never considered them to be anything than women and never met any hostility from them. Nor do I ever witnessed any 'predatory' behaviour.

I am just puzzled by the negativity of what I am reading here.

I am a feminist because I want to see women treated equally but also because I don't believe we should have any preconceived ideas of how people in general behave simply based simply on their gender.

We can't on one hand fight for equality, fairness and respect for women and ask for them not to be victimised by choosing to victimise transgender women. To me this truly abhorrent.

As far as I am concerned transgender women are women, full stop. I think that is what so many here are refusing to admit. I might have been born a woman but I am someone who does not give a damn about labels and see herself as gender fluid and frankly and most of the transgender women I met are more feminine than I will ever be....

My friend has had abuse shouted at her in the street on night outs. Many only socialise within their community to avoid these reactions and my friend was very nervous at first about interacting with some of my other friends and venturing outside the comfort of safe spaces like transgender clubs and so on.

I will be damned if I have any part in trying to demonise transgender women (or transgender men for that matter).

‘Refusing to admit’? You have a belief - that people can change sex. Many of us don’t share that belief as there is no scientific evidence to support it. I’m not at all surprised that your trans friends welcome you, you’re their mirror. Try asking them if they believe transwomen shouldn’t compete against women in rugby, or boxing? Not joining in with someone’s belief system isn’t demonising them, its what we do all the time in every field of life. I don't believe Jesus rose from the dead, but I don't demonise those who do. Now if they said that I had to repeat the mantra that Jesus is the Messiah or else I’d be called a bigot, I’d have something to say.

@Joswis

Why did you join the thread if it's a trigger? It was in the OP.

Oh blimey, have you not read the trigger rules?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Why did you join the thread if it's a trigger? It was in the OP.

Yes, and she's asking you to engage with her feelings. Just like your special pleading for MTF trans people.

I didn't plead. I stayed my opinion as others did. That is the point of this thread. To hear what trans inclusive feminists believe, and why.

Still no reasons given for your opinions though!

Why did you join the thread if it's a trigger?

Because it's not just this thread, is it? It's the entire bloody internet, and all over the damned place in the real world too, and this board is the only place I have found in which I feel safe identifying as a woman.

If the undermining of my sense of self were confined to one internet thread that would make my life a lot easier.

I'm clearly labouring under the misapprehension that trans-inclusive people who claim to show their support for the dysphoric by redefining Woman would probably like to know if their methods are causing further harm to female dysphoria sufferers.

Your response indicates that you would rather not know that you are inadvertently damaging female sufferers of a class you claim to support.

The OP is about the mindset of those who claim to be my allies, and you say I shouldn't read it because it would obviously be triggering? I don't even know where to start with that.

@BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero

Oh in that case, maybe you could explain to us what the third (or fourth, fifth, sixth) sex is, if sex isn't binary?

I’ve got a diagram!

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻