Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

Thanks for the advice. I did my MA thesis on it.

MA, so cultural thesis, rather than scientific?

Did you cite Judith Butler at all?

What do you think a woman is?

The crucial question. But it needs phrasing very clearly otherwise feigned ignorance means our question goes unanswered.

If someone could describe the phenomenon labelled 'woman' that would be very helpful.

A woman is a human who feels this label most accurately describes them? Then what facet or aspect of them is it that merits that label? What collection of physical or metaphysical traits are under discussion?

What conditions are necessary for the legitimate application of this label? What conditions are sufficient?

What is it you are pointing at when you use this word?

@BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero

The most piteous example of a 'gotcha' I think I've ever seen.

I know some other Mumsnetters prefer we ignore the Merailers but lockdown has seriously curtailed my other activities so shooting fishes in barrels is all I’ve got at the mo.

I always tell myself I'm not going to respond but then along comes something so blatantly ridiculous that it just cries out for a shot in the barrel and that one was so unintentionally funny that it just had to be done.

How many legs do humans have?
How many eyes?
Arms?
Ears?
Lungs?

Is it universally true that every human has the same number of legs, arms, ears, lungs, eyes?

Great post 15:41SapphosRock

Betty 🔥😆

Gonna leave this here bye

Yeah, no I'm busy.

I have a very feminist friend. Started one of the countries lesbian helplines many, many years ago. Well published writer on the intersection of lesbianism and feminism.

When trans individuals begun to contact the helpline, initially she was anti / nervous / unsure. Some of the younger workers opened the debate with her and she listened and changed her opinion. To me, that was admirable. From being borderline lesbian separatist, to welcoming t women in. That women, or lady, should I say, showed great compassion. She's in her 80s now. Still writing, still working for the cause.

A shame so many others are so essentialist.

Thanks for the advice. I did my MA thesis on it.

Then explain it in the accepted scientific terms, please, rather than pseudoscience about people being a "blend". As Betty said, it looks like your angle wasn't a scientific one. What was the premise of this groundbreaking thesis?

Just for clarity were they transmen or transwomen?

From being borderline lesbian separatist, to welcoming t women in. That women, or lady, should I say, showed great compassion.

Welcoming them into what? Where is the compassion for women who don't believe males are women?

Personally I often wonder if some people have spent so much time listening to the woes of dysphoric males that they've completely failed to notice the dysphoric females in their midst

I hear you.

Just for clarity were they transmen or transwomen?

Maybe they were a "blend"

Welcoming them in to the group for support obviously.

I think I probably fit that category these days Butterer. Abusive marriage, but also an abusive lesbian partner after that marriage.

I have to say jowis. That I have gone the other way.

Initially I was ignorant of transwomen.then broadly tolerant. Certainly the lady at work was just another person doing their job.

Why have I changes position? Because I can not stand by and let sex based rights be demolished. Because too many transwomen are prepared to threaten, intimidate, and generally act like men at their worst. Because their insistence that they are women changes fundamentally what it means to be a woman, with all the horrific implications that involves

Im sorry that is your experience midgebabe. It hasn't been mine at all.

Thanks for the advice. I did my MA thesis on it.

Oh in that case, maybe you could explain to us what the third (or fourth, fifth, sixth) sex is, if sex isn't binary?

Thanks, Escape.

"No women are harmed by letting males be women" is another problematic sentence I'm paraphrasing from upthread.

If no women are harmed by the twaw catechism, and I am harmed by it, I am logically no woman.

Fortunately I can see the lie in the first clause, but whenever I point out the effect of the catechism, the people who say it ignore me and repeat themselves. Which is just compounding the original 'invalidating and triggering a dysphoric person' problem that they're utterly convinced they're alleviating.

It really does only take literally a few minutes of critical thinking to realise that 'Transwomen are Women' just does not work at all as a concept.

Because people's perception of someone's physical sex is based on a usually quite cursory glance
This has worked until recently.

I'm very "gender non conforming but up til now, 50+ years, never been thrown out for being a man/masculine.
It's really easy to tell the sex of someone by the walk, smell etc.

A shame so many others are so essentialist.

Essentialist meaning ‘female centring’?

Ya. Shame

Duckwit, if you read my other posts, you'll see my pov.

Well chosen username, btw.

Oh in that case, maybe you could explain to us what the third (or fourth, fifth, sixth) sex is, if sex isn't binary?

I’ve got a diagram!