Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

She's in her 80s now. Still writing, still working for the cause.

Are you saying that because an 80 plus woman during her working life was socialised to facilitated male lesbian callers (and I can understand that dynamic) this has made you characterise lesbians as too focused on bodies? Which I assume you mean by essentialism?

The unpleasantly named shemale porn industry sells almost as much as mainstream porn and you won't find it on gay sites. There are huge numbers of trans sex workers and they are not being used by gay men. There are trans dating sites full of straight married men chasing, dating and having sex with trans women and then going back to their families who have no idea. Anyone trans, even on dating sites like okcupid, will
get bombarded with straight men, who's first or second message will usually be 'r u discreet?', and not uncommonly accompanied by a helpful dick pic to help you decide

Now much of this is hidden because men lie. But the truth is there is a huge number of men, who identify as and consider themselves straight who are sexually interested in trans women to the point that ladyboys and shemales were a point of both obsession and hilarity within
'lad' culture and even the 4channers and incels go on about 'traps' and post trans porn to each other

What exactly does this have to do with either women or feminism?

The cause being what exactly?

Almost biology is destiny, Betty. How quaint.

So Joswis in all your studies have you come across any evidence showing that allowing males into female only safe spaces is not detrimental to women's safety?

[quote Imicola]@soontobe60 sure, call me naive If you want - I get that it happens. In my opinion this is a really difficult issue with no easy solution. The need for women's rights shouldn't negate any other (far more marginalised) groups rights or ability to live their life integrated within society.[/quote]
The Equality Act allows for groups with particular protected characteristics to to have their needs met even if they conflate with another group’s needs. Hence the legality of only allowing females into certain single sex spaces even over that of transwomen with a GRC.
In what way do you believe transwomen to be a more marginalised group than biological women? Is Caitlyn Jenner, give a Woman of the Year award, more marginalised than, say, young girls who are subjected to FGM, or girls married off at 12 to men in their 40s?

No EP, you're overthinking my point. My point was, she held an extreme position, but was not static and was open to change.

She taught in 2 of the UKs best universities until she was past 70. Internationally recognised, conferences etc.

Admirable woman. Stayed relevant because she has a sharp critical mind.

@334bu

So Joswis in all your studies have you come across any evidence showing that allowing males into female only safe spaces is not detrimental to women's safety?

Only of t women into previously cis female lesbian spaces 334bu. My 1st person experience. And it was fine. Maybe because gender performativity in lesbians is less rigid.

Biology ISNT Destiny

That's the whole point

Just because you like feminine things, or you want to dress how women in your society do, your biology doesn't stop you doing that

Biology however is kind of important as it it affects a lot of physical things
Those physical things are what binds women together as a group
Those physical things are the basis of the abuse women suffer

Biology affects your physical body, is predictive of certain physical things but isnt predictive your brain, personality , cognitive capacity thats a basic premise of feminism

If no women are harmed by the twaw catechism, and I am harmed by it, I am logically no woman.

I feel it. I don't think they care.

In answer to the op - my experience outside of mn in real life is only of a few teams women who are all very careful not to step on women’s rights and just want to live their lives in peace (presenting as female). It’s not hard to feel no real conflict in including them in my feminism.
It’s only via mn (and Twitter but via mn) that I’ve become aware of the prison issue, the extent of the issue in sport and the odious TRAs.
So my answer to the op is that I was inclusionary because I didn’t know better.

Welcoming them in to the group for support obviously.

With women who valued female only support?

@Joswis

Almost biology is destiny, Betty. How quaint.

Honestly, this is a challenging discussion that does not warrant your silly dismissal.

Quaint? As in not queer theory saturated? The joy of THIS BOARD is that we talk free of the intolerant direction queer theorists have taken public discussion.

It's happening either as you say because they are perceived to be women or because they are perceived to be of the female gender and that will do for a lot of straight men. So does it really matter? It impacts the same, trans women are just as worried about walking through the streets late at night as women, for the same reasons. I'm nervous about getting in an uber on my own with a man just for the same reason my female friends are. I've had men grab my arse or aggresively come on to me just like my female friends have. I've compared notes with friends, the creepy dating messages and misogynist shit trans women get online is just the same as the creepy shit non trans women get

But they ain't women and again its men doing the grabbing and assaulting. So why do women have to budge up and give our limited time/energy/money whatever to transwomen?
In fact my thoughts are that transwomen should probably go all out to the men to fight their own battles. Maybe they could congregate in mens toilets, men sexual health services, mens sexed spaces and tell men that they are not going anywhere. Tell men that if they want that space then they damn well will have it. If men dont like it they can fuck off and make another somewhere else. Hows that sound.

Only of t women into previously cis female lesbian spaces 334bu.

Yes, that's still male into female spaces. We don't have much truck with "cis" here, because most of FWR don't identify with that term, so I guess we are trans in your binary worldview.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Welcoming them in to the group for support obviously.

With women who valued female only support?

Into a lesbian group.

Biology is only destiny in the sense that a Y chromosome at conception will still be a Y chromosome if your remains are exhumed and examined in a few hundred years.

Beyond that, do as you please, as long as it doesn't involve making other people lie to you.

It really does only take literally a few minutes of critical thinking to realise that 'Transwomen are Women' just does not work at all as a concept.

It does. Unfortunately there are people who don't do a great deal of critical thinking, and will react aggressively when they are forced to confront the absurdity of their beliefs.

Into a lesbian group.

Were the women involved consulted about having a male in the group?

The unpleasantly named shemale porn industry sells almost as much as mainstream porn and you won't find it on gay sites.

And yet if women here mention Blanchard's sexology research on this exact phenomena we are pounced on by external monitors.

Why is that?

I completely accept others have different perspectives and different experiences. But enforcing a pov onto something you didn't experience is inaccurate.

The support group I was in accepted t women as women. Mumsnet members may indeed 'have no truck with that' but this is not the authority on trans issues. Disappointing as that may be for you Ereshkigalangcleg.

This is supposed to be a debate. A debate does not involve shutting down other perspectives.

Mumsnet members may indeed 'have no truck with that' but this is not the authority on trans issues.

I was talking about the use of "cis". Please don't misquote my words to suit what argument you would prefer to make.

I don't get it. My mind is blown.

Maybe thats the point

The support group I was in accepted t women as women.

Were they each asked for their consent before the male person was admitted? You know, I have these quaint old beliefs in boundaries, respect and consent.

Men are not women and the law must not be re defined to include men within the definition of women

I cannot believe in the 21st century we have to say this!