Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

There is no hostility, negativity or victimisation in saying that transgender people are transgender.

Feminism isn't about the perfomance of femininity its about women and girls and I really wish we could move away from this idea that performance > sex because it helps no one.

For example, there are surveys that show that 50% of UK Muslims believe homosexuality should be an imprisonable offence but it's a totally taboo subject. You'll never hear people say that the Muslim community has responsibility to address this fact. Same with knife crime amongst black males and instances like the Rotherham sex scandal and NYE sexual assaults.

And which SEX class is the common denominator in all the above dear Lord?

Escapeplanning I'm often to be found singing that song, very apt.

As far as I am concerned transgender women are women, full stop.

Why, Requinblanc? This is the bit I don’t understand.

What do you mean by the word “woman”? There is literally no definition of the word woman that I know of that encompasses anyone biologically male. (Circular definitions such as “someone who identifies as a woman” don’t count because that still doesn’t say what a woman actually is.)

How can I say someone (an adult human male) is something I know for a fact they are not (an adult human female)? It literally makes no sense.

I can say there are some adult human males who look as if they’re adult human females (though I’m not sure there are a great many who really do), or some who adopt the stereotypes associated with adult human females in terms of dress and behaviour, or who intensely wish to be seen as if they were female.

None of those things actually makes them female, ergo they can’t possibly be women. If the word “woman” doesn’t have a precise, specific meaning, it has lost its use as a word, and is literally meaningless. Words without agreed meanings are just units of sound which no longer have any communicative functionality.

So what do you mean when you say these males “are” women?

Same with knife crime amongst black males and instances like the Rotherham sex scandal and NYE sexual assaults.

Of course, these don't cancel out the crimes perpetrated by men

That’s because they ARE crimes perpetrated by MEN, you ninny.

"I've no intention of distracting you ladies now you've finally got back on topic, so here is a great big distraction in the form of Muslims. Ready, set, go!"

No thanks.

Personally I often wonder if some people have spent so much time listening to the woes of dysphoric males that they've completely failed to notice the dysphoric females in their midst.

@BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero

Same with knife crime amongst black males and instances like the Rotherham sex scandal and NYE sexual assaults.

Of course, these don't cancel out the crimes perpetrated by men

That’s because they ARE crimes perpetrated by MEN, you ninny.

The most piteous example of a 'gotcha' I think I've ever seen.

Lord MEN have held the reins of power and access to the finance to increase and embed that power for millenia, enough time one would have thought to address and solve the issue of male violence. What on earth could be stopping them sorting it out - apathy, incompetence, or just straight old loving of the power and contempt for those against which they use the inherent threat or actual violence? It's a real conundrum.

I am someone who does not give a damn about labels and see herself as gender fluid

🤦

@Kantastic

I am someone who does not give a damn about labels and see herself as gender fluid

🤦

And many of us welcome you into the feminist fold.

Requinblanc
We can't on one hand fight for equality, fairness and respect for women and ask for them not to be victimised by choosing to victimise transgender women. To me this truly abhorrent.

This sentence is unclear Requinblanc. What were you trying to say?

I know lots of males who have had transexual surgery and still talk at length about being male. Long term Trans posters here like Hamster and Jayceedove have discussed this with us at length. Jayceedove talked about gender clinicians making a point of having people understand pre surgery that it's not going to change their sex.

Have they victimised themselves with their clarity and acceptance of their reality? Are they aborrant?

As far as I am concerned transgender women are women, full stop. I think that is what so many here are refusing to admit.

Personally, I'm refusing to admit it, because I see no reason to believe it to be true.

@Joswis

• Sex IS a continuum. There are far more variations on XX and XY than we are taught. Of course, we label those that don't fit those 2 neat little categories 'disorders' but they are naturally occurring, therefore they are normal human biology.

I have a friend that is non-standard. She identifies as female but is in fact a blend*

I think

You’d do well to read up on Intersex - also known as DSD - Difference of Sex Development. People with DSD are still either male or female. There is no ‘third’ sex. www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjWjqilrYLtAhVbilwKHUyJCBAQFjACegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fintersexfacts%3Flang%3Den&usg=AOvVaw0kbUL7jc5pwyWdBkEsMD7A

Also, Requinblanc, you say you are a lifelong feminist.

So I wonder what your thoughts are about this statement from MurrayBlackburnMcKenzie:

The significant physical, economic and social consequences of being born female are why women require law and policy to recognise their specific needs for safety, privacy, dignity and fairness.

Do you disagree? If so, as a feminist, on what grounds?

You seem think women on here are hostile. I would say we are just mindful of the aforementioned, and what we are doing here is how the statement follows on:

Now, as much as ever, we need to be vocal about this in the policy and law making process.

Do you think there’s anything feminist about stifling women’s debate on the topic of women’s rights?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

MrsKypp, separating bathrooms by chromosomes is ridiculous.

Sex is about gametes, not just chromosomes. Separating by biological sex ie male/female is certainly not ridiculous. And it's about female toilets, not "bathrooms" which is a cringey Americanism which makes you sound like you're copying and pasting US TRA Twitter.

Single sex spaces are necessary because of male behaviour.

As a gender fluid person Requinblanc do you have any real evidence that including males of whatever gender identity into female safe spaces won't be detrimental to women's safety?

That’s because they ARE crimes perpetrated by MEN, you ninny.

and ask for them not to be victimised by choosing to victimise transgender women.

How exactly are feminist women here "victimising" MTF trans people?

I also met through her many members of the transgender community ... I never considered them to be anything than women

This is the bit I don't get. What do you think a woman is?

@Requinblanc do you support trans women being rape crisis counsellors for females? Do you support trans women competing in female sport?

It's all very well wanting equality but the agenda being pushed by trans activists is for there to be literally no distinction made between women and trans women.

That means females who have been sexually assaulted having no right to request counselling from someone female. It means women competing with male bodied athletes in sport.

If it was a simple as hanging out with some lovely, feminine trans women and having a nice time of course nobody would have a problem.

Single sex spaces are necessary because of male behaviour.

Agreed. And not just the risk of sexual assault or other violence. Also sexual harassment and for the comfort, privacy and dignity of women.

The most piteous example of a 'gotcha' I think I've ever seen.

I know some other Mumsnetters prefer we ignore the Merailers but lockdown has seriously curtailed my other activities so shooting fishes in barrels is all I’ve got at the mo.

That’s because they ARE crimes perpetrated by MEN, you ninny.

That's given me a chuckle.

Lord I'm sure you are used to forthright chat in your world of work so don't have a sulk. Keep reading.

Betty

That’s because they ARE crimes perpetrated by MEN, you ninny.

[quote Soontobe60]@Joswis

• Sex IS a continuum. There are far more variations on XX and XY than we are taught. Of course, we label those that don't fit those 2 neat little categories 'disorders' but they are naturally occurring, therefore they are normal human biology.

I have a friend that is non-standard. She identifies as female but is in fact a blend*

I think

You’d do well to read up on Intersex - also known as DSD - Difference of Sex Development. People with DSD are still either male or female. There is no ‘third’ sex. www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjWjqilrYLtAhVbilwKHUyJCBAQFjACegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fintersexfacts%3Flang%3Den&usg=AOvVaw0kbUL7jc5pwyWdBkEsMD7A[/quote]
Thanks for the advice. I did my MA thesis on it.

Dangerously close to 'man'splaining.

@BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero

Basically it wasn't the supportive, safe environment I expected. The trans inclusive groups and trans women I encountered prioritised their own safety and networking opportunities over genuinely keeping women safe from sexual violence and racism.

This is utterly shit. Have you managed to access support now? I have a brilliant friend who works with young women recovering from sexual violence (mostly within inner city gang cultures, so incredibly tough work and she is brilliant at holding the line for survivors). Want me to ask her for recommendations in your region?

☝🏻☝🏻☝🏻 THIS is true feminism in action. Supporting other women when they need it.