Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

Do the people who seems to be so hostile about transgender women have actually bothered to spend anytime speaking to these women and understanding them?

I really wonder...

I am a lifelong feminist and I met a transgender woman a few years ago who has since become a fantastic friend. Before that I had never had the opportunity to speak to someone who had gone and was still going through gender reassignment and who could talk candidly about what was going on in her mind.

I also met through her many members of the transgender community and I was really touched as to how they welcomed me. I never considered them to be anything than women and never met any hostility from them. Nor do I ever witnessed any 'predatory' behaviour.

I am just puzzled by the negativity of what I am reading here.

I am a feminist because I want to see women treated equally but also because I don't believe we should have any preconceived ideas of how people in general behave simply based simply on their gender.

We can't on one hand fight for equality, fairness and respect for women and ask for them not to be victimised by choosing to victimise transgender women. To me this truly abhorrent.

As far as I am concerned transgender women are women, full stop. I think that is what so many here are refusing to admit. I might have been born a woman but I am someone who does not give a damn about labels and see herself as gender fluid and frankly and most of the transgender women I met are more feminine than I will ever be....

My friend has had abuse shouted at her in the street on night outs. Many only socialise within their community to avoid these reactions and my friend was very nervous at first about interacting with some of my other friends and venturing outside the comfort of safe spaces like transgender clubs and so on.

I will be damned if I have any part in trying to demonise transgender women (or transgender men for that matter).

most of the transgender women I met are more feminine than I will ever be

Being feminine has fuck all to do with being a woman though, that’s the point.

I don’t want to see trans women “demonised” either, but I don’t think recognising that sex is a relevant source of female oppression and fighting against it demonises them in any way.

Saying someone is not the same as you is not ‘demonising’.

Cats are not dogs, men are not women. Neutral facts.

‘Male’ is a reproductive categorisation, not an insult.

@Requinblanc

Do the people who seems to be so hostile about transgender women have actually bothered to spend anytime speaking to these women and understanding them?

I really wonder...

I am a lifelong feminist and I met a transgender woman a few years ago who has since become a fantastic friend. Before that I had never had the opportunity to speak to someone who had gone and was still going through gender reassignment and who could talk candidly about what was going on in her mind.

I also met through her many members of the transgender community and I was really touched as to how they welcomed me. I never considered them to be anything than women and never met any hostility from them. Nor do I ever witnessed any 'predatory' behaviour.

I am just puzzled by the negativity of what I am reading here.

I am a feminist because I want to see women treated equally but also because I don't believe we should have any preconceived ideas of how people in general behave simply based simply on their gender.

We can't on one hand fight for equality, fairness and respect for women and ask for them not to be victimised by choosing to victimise transgender women. To me this truly abhorrent.

As far as I am concerned transgender women are women, full stop. I think that is what so many here are refusing to admit. I might have been born a woman but I am someone who does not give a damn about labels and see herself as gender fluid and frankly and most of the transgender women I met are more feminine than I will ever be....

My friend has had abuse shouted at her in the street on night outs. Many only socialise within their community to avoid these reactions and my friend was very nervous at first about interacting with some of my other friends and venturing outside the comfort of safe spaces like transgender clubs and so on.

I will be damned if I have any part in trying to demonise transgender women (or transgender men for that matter).

I spent time being friends with and getting to know Karen Jones. And then found out their history. I did ask them to explain in their own words what happened and it was fucking disgusting, as was their open misogyny displayed and their telling me they was a c*s lesbian.

Happy days.

Now much of this is hidden because men lie. But the truth is there is a huge number of men, who identify as and consider themselves straight who are sexually interested in trans women to the point that ladyboys and shemales were a point of both obsession and hilarity within 'lad' culture and even the 4channers and incels go on about 'traps' and post trans porn to each other.

I really don't think this is something a lot of GC feminists either believe or understand, but it's very, very true.

I do believe and understand that clearly bisexual men don't want to admit that to themselves, and I do know they seek out MTF trans porn and hookups.

note: I always namechange from my usual UN when I talk about that, because it's something I want to keep separate, if that makes sense. I'm not sock puppeting, just attempting to compartmentalise it in terms of posting about it/having it in my posting history. I hope that's allowed.

There is a world of difference between a transgender woman who acknowledges that they are different to women, who understands that there are situations where that difference is relevant and those who couldn't give a toss, want everything their way and are willing to bully and threaten and physically assault women who disagree

If you rtt, you will see people ( who I think say they are transgender) who wish to do away with the sex based rights that women have, replacing for example sex separation with meaningless gender separation.

But bluntly, I don't care how nice any man or transgender woman is, I am not willing to forgo sex based rights which exist to overcome discrimination caused by the the sexism embedded in society

I spent time being friends with and getting to know Karen Jones..

Not heard of that person before. Wish I'd not bothered to look up.

Ew.

Oh, I know they don't care, RedDogs. The rank hypocrisy of it needs throwing in their faces though.

They never cared about women, and the introduction of category Trans has simply repeated the issue.

Measures to support male-born trans people necessitate female-born trans people being placed in increased physical danger.

Measures to support male-born dysphoric people drive dysphoria in female-born dysphoric people.

We raise him up by pushing her down, every damned time.

And fwiw I wouldn't mind if, say, Dervel popped in to say his understanding of his sexed man identity was in alignment with my position; that would be relevant supporting evidence. It's males' opinion on sexed woman identities that I've long since had my fill of.

I am not “refusing to believe” Transwomen are women I just know they are not
In the same way I don’t refuse to believe the world is flat, it’s not.

I can't admit transgender women are women because they are male, otherwise they wouldn't be trans. I dont know why that is hard to understand

As far as I am concerned transgender women are women full stop.

Knowing that this is a statement about male-born women means my dysphoria is triggered.

Well done, Requinblanc. Thank you for the timely reminder that I am a failed and defective non-woman.

Tyroterf is no more failed and defective than me and on consideration, apart from some dodgy knees and failure to hold a tune on my part, we are just normal women

And yes, this rubbish about what it means to be a woman /trans is incredibly distressing to women who had to work out why they didn't fit the mould, women who worked out that sexist people in society are basically the problem , nothing wrong with thee or me

But as a feminist I oppose anything men do that threatens women's rights, including the current trend against free speech and single-sex spaces. I can't care more about men feeling validated by using women's services than I care about the women whose privacy has been removed, no matter how harmless that man may be.

Well said. This is the heart of the matter. If you think feelings are important, why aren't those of women who have boundaries around the opposite sex?

@TyroTerf

As far as I am concerned transgender women are women full stop.

Knowing that this is a statement about male-born women means my dysphoria is triggered.

Well done, Requinblanc. Thank you for the timely reminder that I am a failed and defective non-woman.

With the added dollop of snide that the transgender women that poster knows are highly likely to be far more feminine than you or indeed any of us, we are not feminine enough, male born people outshine us at living up to the gender, window dressing, stereotypes, therefore feminism is for them, excellent.

The more I read the more depressed I get. What on earth does some kind of performing femininity have to do with single sex protection?

The former can be done by the world and his/her/their dog. I hope anyone who is up for that has fun, regardless of biological sex.

The latter is necessary due to biological differences we are born with.

How can you be a feminist and even consider performing femininity as a factor in feminism?

I've no desire to derail this thread as it's mostly got back on track, but I just dislike the 'order of wokeness'/'oppression hierarchy' which seems to inadvertently stipulate that 'oppressed' groups are often likely to be completely free from culpability.

For example, there are surveys that show that 50% of UK Muslims believe homosexuality should be an imprisonable offence but it's a totally taboo subject. You'll never hear people say that the Muslim community has responsibility to address this fact. Same with knife crime amongst black males and instances like the Rotherham sex scandal and NYE sexual assaults.

Of course, these don't cancel out the crimes perpetrated by men, but when you can have people praising an essay titled 'I Hate Men' but could never have one titled 'I Hate Muslims' there's something wrong.

No doubt this post will get deleted.

Lecturing women about non conformity, when that is the life story of every ordinary woman involved in the history of women's liberation, is arrogant in the extreme.

If you think feelings are important, why aren't those of women who have boundaries around the opposite sex?

Only one set of feelings matter and those are of the male bodied, funny that, and for the avoidance of doubt, that is NOT feminism.

Nor do I ever witnessed any 'predatory' behaviour.

I see this said over and over so that I want to scream. No, I do not believe TW are predatory, or at least any more so than men in general.

Do the people who seems to be so hostile about transgender women have actually bothered to spend anytime speaking to these...

Grew up with one. So, 20ish years. Then normal family contact. Their transition followed a mental breakdown. Transition altered mental issues not at all. Hope that qualifies me to have an opinion. which is not, as you seem to think, hostile. I am more caring than the health professionals, because my family member remains in need of mental health care that is not forthcoming because "hey presto! problem solved, go away and dilate".

However sympathetic I may be to TW, though, feminism centers women not men. Women have a right to single sex sports, prisons, etc.

No idea what you are on about Lancington

Have a sing-along

Oh Lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz.
My friends all drive porsches, I must make amends.
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends.
So oh Lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz

However, there is a separate mumsnet definition which is something about ‘liberation of women’.

It's not a "Mumsnet definition" it's a form of feminism which recognises existing structural power as a framework for women's continued oppression as a sex class.

Sorry, is this a thread called I hate men?
When did "I want some respect" start t9 mean " I hate anyone different to me"

MrsKypp, separating bathrooms by chromosomes is ridiculous.

Sex is about gametes, not just chromosomes. Separating by biological sex ie male/female is certainly not ridiculous. And it's about female toilets, not "bathrooms" which is a cringey Americanism which makes you sound like you're copying and pasting US TRA Twitter.